The road to recovery will begin Thursday.

[AAObserver]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 8:06:05 PM RV4 wrote:



It is my opinion that AMR needs to replace Carty with a credible replacement and a vision for our future.

No more slogans, and buzz words please. Just the facts are all we need.

File the Chapter 11 for re-oganization.

Come forward with a complete business plan that the employees can view.

Make the emergence from Chapter 11, the quickest in Airline Industry.

The emlpoyees have proven their willingnes to contribute to the recovery process.

This really is not as complicated as many are attempting to make it, we just leadership instead of chaos.

Leadership - The ability to direct skills, talent, ideas, and loyalty to a common goal of success.

Failed Leadership - CHAOS

What is so difficult about that? Keep it Simple, folks,

We will begin recovery on Thursday and become a stronger Airline as a result of this current disaster.

Bring on the new leader, we are ready to follow.


----------------​

An airline the size of American will NOT come out of bankruptcy quickly. This will be the largest airline bankruptcy in history, and isn''t small potatoes like US Air. It will take months and months just for the creditors to sift through the wreckage to figure out how much AA is really worth.

I agree it''s probably time for Carty to step down; not because he''s a bad man or bad CEO, but because AA''s unions are too hell bent to take the company down as long as he''s around.

One thing AA might want to do in the future is teach a US Business course to it''s union employees so they''ll realize that management is not out to get them. In BK, AA would also would be smart to use the court system to break down the outdated union system as much as possible. Creditors and judges are going to agree with AA that the three unions have been a major hindrance to business success, and in BK all the court cares about is the creditors.

 

[Buck]

I am a Republican and will not hide the fact.

 

[Buck]

----------------

Buck,

AE is not restricted because of AA. It''s restricted because the pilot''s union doesn''t want AE pilots to start flying their routes.

And I admit I don''t know what union dues go for or why employees who are financially strained are having to pay them, but I certainly know how unions affect a company''s ability to control it''s costs, give merit increases to it''s best employees, and foster anger toward management.

And no, I wouldn''t blame ticket prices on non-union employees making too much money. Ticket prices are based on market prices, not employee payroll. As far as wage concessions go, if AA was free of union constraints and could control the number of employees it needs to run it''s business, it could pay fewer employees more money. Severe concessions might not even be needed in that scenario.

Finally, how you can say union workers produce better maintenance is beyond me. Non-union workers have the same standards as union, but the airline would be free to pay it''s best people more and layoff the less capable workers as it sees fit.

----------------​

AE is the B-scale version for the Pilots. Of course you have no idea what I am referring to. Because you have no real idea how labor functions in the first place.

It is not the 2 hours pay per month that financially strains union workers. It is the concessionairy contracts that place us below our peers in the industry.

NO non-union workers do not have the same standards. They can fired without cause. They live in fear that the boss might be you. The production of Quality Maintenance is beyond you. Generally union workers are happier at their jobs. The pay is generally higher and the benefits better because they are bargained for, not brown nosed for.
I am not say that a non-unionized mechanic is worse than a unionized mechanic, But the unionized mechanic is compensated better. So as mechanics, both of us are under paid.

 

[MR AIRPORT]

GETTING MR CARTY TO STEP DOWN SHOULD BE EASY AT THIS POINT BUT WHO WILL REPLACE HIM,SOMEONE ELSE FROM THE CRACK BONUS TEAM? WHO CAN YOU TRUST? NO ONE.LOOK AT USAIR PRE AND POST BK. WAGE,BENEFIT AND WORK RULE CHANGES GOOD FOR THE COMPANY BUT NOT FOR EMPLOYEE. I'VE BEEN THROUGH TWO MERGERS,FIVE MOVES PAY AND BENEFIT CUTS AND NOW ONE BK. IT WORKED OUT TO BE ABOUT A 23% CUT. NOT GOOD.I WILL SAY DAVE SEIGEL WAS AT LEAST ONE THING WITH THE USAIR WORKFORCE HE WAS HONEST. GOOD LUCK MY FRIENDS

****Moderators Note - Please do not use all capital letters - it makes it hard to read - Thanks****

 

[AAStew]

Please don''t hide that fact, I think it is great. So am I. Who says you can''t be republican and pro-union, kind of?

 

[BDLDFW]

----------------
The solution will require a reworked TA. One that gets the costs AA needs to survive and compete.
----------------​

Looks like that will happen, but it will most likely be reworked by approval of a BK judge.

 

[Buck]

I think that you may be a major stock holder who took it in the shorts. How many shares are ya holdin now? Take your loss and go home.
This is not about you!

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 8:59:17 PM AAObserver wrote:

With that said, I hope AA doesn''t go into bankruptcy. It''s a great airline, the best in the US in my opinion. But over the years it has always been clear that the unions refuse to have a positive relationship with management. I''ve had flights cancelled because of AA unions before, and I''ve had to sit on pins and needles at other times because a union threatened to strike.

----------------​

There is NO TIME not to file Bankruptcy, AA is losing 8-10 Million Dollars per day!

 

[AAObserver]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 9:31:46 PM Buck wrote:

----------------
On 4/23/2003 9:13:13 PM AAObserver wrote:

Buck,

I do pay "reasonable" fares. In fact, the fares I pay are so "reasonable" that they are unreasonable, which is probably why AA gave me OBC status.

But I agree with you, the fare structures are a huge problem not only for AA but for the other top tier carriers. Unfortunately, I really think they are here to stay and the big airlines are either going to slash costs or become extinct.

I know that my views are not popular, and believe it or not I really feel for what AA employees are going through. This is a rough time, and all of you have rent/mortage and car payments to make not to mention families to feed. But in the end I think the union structure has done both the employees and the airline a huge disservice. If you weren't part of a union and you were a top producer (which I believe you probably are based on your posts), you would be making more money and wouldn't have to worry about being laid off because seniority wouldn't play a part.

In addition, without union constraints the airline would be more free to control it's cost through reductions in force instead of consessions from everyone, as well other ways such as using RJs where it makes sense (AE is restricted because of the pilots union). Also, unions have created alot of the "us vs. them" mentality -- you don't see this degree of hatred for management at non-unionized companies.

----------------​

No you do not pay reasonable fares. If we were discussing unionized labor as in Electricians and Plumbers, you would blame them also. Mechanics in the airline industry are underpaid compared to their peers.

OBC status who cares, the airline is broke.

Or Re-regulate?

Your veiws are not popular because you come in hear and instead of attempting to discuss the issues you slam organized labor. And you do this as a habit. You admit you know nothing about them, yet you appear to be an authority because you got bumped a few times. Do you hate the weather also?

You have no idea how much of a union man I am and I am not even a member of the TWU. HOw would I be making more money, when you advocate unions taking wage concessions? If I were non-union you would think I was making to much if you beleived the ticket price was to high.

Without union constraints, there would be shoddy maintenance. Unions are paid well and produce a good product. Again if you hate unions so much good luck with your air travel.

AE is restricted because of AA.

Just the opposite it is AA who has created the adverse feelings. Look at the continual give backs over the last 20 years. NO hatred in non-unionized companies,because they can fire without cause. You really don't get it.

----------------​

Buck,

AE is not restricted because of AA. It's restricted because the pilot's union doesn't want AE pilots to start flying their routes.

And I admit I don't know what union dues go for or why employees who are financially strained are having to pay them, but I certainly know how unions affect a company's ability to control it's costs, give merit increases to it's best employees, and foster anger toward management.

And no, I wouldn't blame ticket prices on non-union employees making too much money. Ticket prices are based on market prices, not employee payroll. As far as wage concessions go, if AA was free of union constraints and could control the number of employees it needs to run it's business, it could pay fewer employees more money. Severe concessions might not even be needed in that scenario.

Finally, how you can say union workers produce better maintenance is beyond me. Non-union workers have the same standards as union, but the airline would be free to pay it's best people more and layoff the less capable workers as it sees fit.

And maybe you don't care about OBC. But if you care about your employer, you damn well better care about OBC because without us all the concessions or great management teams in the world won't save your airline.

 

[RV4]

Let''s try to begin this thread again...

...It is my opinion that AMR needs to replace Carty with a credible replacement and a vision for our future.

No more slogans, and buzz words please. Just the facts are all we need.

File the Chapter 11 for re-oganization.

Come forward with a complete business plan that the employees can view.

Make the emergence from Chapter 11, the quickest in Airline Industry.

The emlpoyees have proven their willingnes to contribute to the recovery process.

This really is not as complicated as many are attempting to make it, we just leadership instead of chaos.

Leadership - The ability to direct skills, talent, ideas, and loyalty to a common goal of success.

Failed Leadership - CHAOS

What is so difficult about that? Keep it Simple, folks,

We will begin recovery on Thursday and become a stronger Airline as a result of this current disaster.

Bring on the new leader, we are ready to follow.

 

[Buck]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 9:13:13 PM AAObserver wrote:

Buck,

I do pay "reasonable" fares. In fact, the fares I pay are so "reasonable" that they are unreasonable, which is probably why AA gave me OBC status.

But I agree with you, the fare structures are a huge problem not only for AA but for the other top tier carriers. Unfortunately, I really think they are here to stay and the big airlines are either going to slash costs or become extinct.

I know that my views are not popular, and believe it or not I really feel for what AA employees are going through. This is a rough time, and all of you have rent/mortage and car payments to make not to mention families to feed. But in the end I think the union structure has done both the employees and the airline a huge disservice. If you weren''t part of a union and you were a top producer (which I believe you probably are based on your posts), you would be making more money and wouldn''t have to worry about being laid off because seniority wouldn''t play a part.

In addition, without union constraints the airline would be more free to control it''s cost through reductions in force instead of consessions from everyone, as well other ways such as using RJs where it makes sense (AE is restricted because of the pilots union). Also, unions have created alot of the "us vs. them" mentality -- you don''t see this degree of hatred for management at non-unionized companies.

----------------​

No you do not pay reasonable fares. If we were discussing unionized labor as in Electricians and Plumbers, you would blame them also. Mechanics in the airline industry are underpaid compared to their peers.

OBC status who cares, the airline is broke.

Or Re-regulate?

Your veiws are not popular because you come in hear and instead of attempting to discuss the issues you slam organized labor. And you do this as a habit. You admit you know nothing about them, yet you appear to be an authority because you got bumped a few times. Do you hate the weather also?

You have no idea how much of a union man I am and I am not even a member of the TWU. HOw would I be making more money, when you advocate unions taking wage concessions? If I were non-union you would think I was making to much if you beleived the ticket price was to high.

Without union constraints, there would be shoddy maintenance. Unions are paid well and produce a good product. Again if you hate unions so much good luck with your air travel.

AE is restricted because of AA.

Just the opposite it is AA who has created the adverse feelings. Look at the continual give backs over the last 20 years. NO hatred in non-unionized companies,because they can fire without cause. You really don''t get it.

 

[air_guy]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 10:30:18 PM JAMAKE1 wrote:



I have to jump in on this:


You guys at AA were duped. It appears your MEC''s were coerced into

signing those punitive agreements. US and UA employees fared much better in their concessionary TA''s, even while both carries were bankrupt. The unfortunate thing is that you will never get back what has been conceded. Honestly, I think you''d be better off having AA file Chapter 11 (which is likely to happen this week) which will buy you some time to renegotiate the terms of the agreements. You guys really got raked through the coals and the terms of your givebacks were over-reaching compared to US and UA.


AAObserver: You do make some valid points. Yes, retention bonuses are standard, but there appears to have been an underhandedness by AA management that took place in terms of twisting the arms of the unions for sacrifices, yet covertly protecting the interests of the senior officers. It was not handled appropriately. Even the Wall Street airline analysts have said that it was poorly handled by Carty et al.


Also; I have worked for both union and non-union carriers and I will tell you that working conditions and scheduling abuses were far worse at the non-union airline I worked for. Incidentally, during my time there as a flight attendant, a union was voted in. It was the first on the property and subsequently, the pilots and mechanics followed with union representation. It is important in this industry to have workrules, which usually come through collective bargaining negotiations. I worked duty days in excess of 30 hours because even the FAA didn''t set maximum duty time standards. Working under the Federal Railway Labor Act, airline workers do not enjoy most of the protections that most American workers enjoy under OSHA. I am a flight attendant for United and consider myself pro-customer, pro-company, and pro-union.


Buck: Comparing Carty''s performance to Crandal''s is like comparing apples and oranges. The circumstances were very different. I think the TWA purchase was the RIGHT thing to do at the TIME. Hindsight is always 20/20. But at the time, it was a competitive response to the proposed UA/US merger. Here, I can cut Carty some slack. As mergers go (and I have been through two)

it was a relatively quick and smooth transition. No one could have predicted the fallout from 9/11, the economic downturn, the erosion of high-yield revenue, the Iraqi conflict, etc. American''s precarious financial position has more to do with the aforementioned eternal factors than Carty''s performance as CEO.


Best of luck to you all.

----------------​

Do you have any facts to support what you are saying? US airways shrank 33% with the corresponding number of layoffs while United had traded less paycuts with more Outsourcing (cargo ramp and Base maintenance with the IAM for example) which will translate in more layoffs. Each agreement will be percieved different depending on what people value the most, where they are in the seniority list etc etc. No agreement that means giving up pay will be found positive. In BK not only the workforce risks getting more cuts and layoffs... they money gets used to pay legal fees and very expensive DIP financing... The ''wonders'' of BK that people may think exist do not come for free.... and you always have the risk of not doing it right and being liquidated by your creditors....

 

[AA80Driver]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 8:25:58 PM AAObserver wrote:

One thing AA might want to do in the future is teach a US Business course to it''s union employees so they''ll realize that management is not out to get them. In BK, AA would also would be smart to use the court system to break down the outdated union system as much as possible. Creditors and judges are going to agree with AA that the three unions have been a major hindrance to business success, and in BK all the court cares about is the creditors.


----------------​

How come the outdated union system works at other carriers?

Maybe AA management should be forced to retake organizational behavior.

 

[JAMAKE1]

I have to jump in on this:

You guys at AA were duped. It appears your MEC''s were coerced into
signing those punitive agreements. US and UA employees fared much better in their concessionary TA''s, even while both carries were bankrupt. The unfortunate thing is that you will never get back what has been conceded. Honestly, I think you''d be better off having AA file Chapter 11 (which is likely to happen this week) which will buy you some time to renegotiate the terms of the agreements. You guys really got raked through the coals and the terms of your givebacks were over-reaching compared to US and UA.

AAObserver: You do make some valid points. Yes, retention bonuses are standard, but there appears to have been an underhandedness by AA management that took place in terms of twisting the arms of the unions for sacrifices, yet covertly protecting the interests of the senior officers. It was not handled appropriately. Even the Wall Street airline analysts have said that it was poorly handled by Carty et al.

Also; I have worked for both union and non-union carriers and I will tell you that working conditions and scheduling abuses were far worse at the non-union airline I worked for. Incidentally, during my time there as a flight attendant, a union was voted in. It was the first on the property and subsequently, the pilots and mechanics followed with union representation. It is important in this industry to have workrules, which usually come through collective bargaining negotiations. I worked duty days in excess of 30 hours because even the FAA didn''t set maximum duty time standards. Working under the Federal Railway Labor Act, airline workers do not enjoy most of the protections that most American workers enjoy under OSHA. I am a flight attendant for United and consider myself pro-customer, pro-company, and pro-union.

Buck: Comparing Carty''s performance to Crandal''s is like comparing apples and oranges. The circumstances were very different. I think the TWA purchase was the RIGHT thing to do at the TIME. Hindsight is always 20/20. But at the time, it was a competitive response to the proposed UA/US merger. Here, I can cut Carty some slack. As mergers go (and I have been through two)
it was a relatively quick and smooth transition. No one could have predicted the fallout from 9/11, the economic downturn, the erosion of high-yield revenue, the Iraqi conflict, etc. American''s precarious financial position has more to do with the aforementioned eternal factors than Carty''s performance as CEO.

Best of luck to you all.

 

[AAStew]

It is useless Buck....
By the way, I don''t mean to be Dense hear, but do you have the elephant stomping on the donkey because you think REpublicans are trodding over everyone or because you feel Republicans are a stronger party? No judgement of any kind, just interested in your logo.