The Noose tightens on Gerry

[abe]

The "deal" that prevented Delta from becoming an unsuccessful SWA. The "deal" that put Delta on the international map, and allowed it to reap the huge profits from Pan Am's Shuttle operation.

You're right, the shuttle was and still is a benefit from that merger.

As far as the international routes, how many of those are still around? Delta had some int'l presence before the Pan Am merger/buyout....at least double what US Airways currently has. Their Asia network was actually a lot bigger in those days than it is now. (They had more than 1 route).

What about all of those West Coast to Europe routes? What about the Frankfurt hub? What about the misc. routes like Miami to Europe and DTW to Europe?

It was not Pan Am's fault that Delta didn't know how to operate an International Div. (just ask all the non foreign language speaking Delta Flight Attendants that were given SUPER seniority over PAA crews, so that they could fly those high paying International PAA routes).


Remember, Lockerbie was the nail that put PAA down. It's load factor prior, was higher than all U.S. majors.

Had PAA had the right management during the 1980's it would be the supreme juggernaut of the industry today...hands down. No airline in the world has had such a global route empire.

I don't disagree with any of this...It may or may not be true. To be honest, I have no idea either way!

My post was responding to a guy who said that Delta employees prospered from the break-up of Pan Am.

There may have been short term gains (months, not years), but besides the shuttle, the long term gains were not there.

If they were, those routes would still be around. Except for the shuttle and maybe a few others, they aren't.

I'm not knocking Pan Am "the company" and I'm certainly not knocking the former Pan Am people, just telling it like it is.

Abe

 

[abe]

Sure, but if the leasing company takes the -800's and sells/leases them to XYZ carrier, then in the end Boeing is losing out. Instead of selling to two carriers, DL and XYZ, Boeing is now only selling to one, XYZ.

Huh?

Maybe because Parker wants this deal bad enough that he's willing to put in a huge Boeing order that will blow away anything DL by itself could or would buy.

Anything's possible...

Maybe Parker is personal friends with Bill Gates and he'll pony up the cash?!

Or maybe Parker will go on Oprah to talk about the merger and the wife of the Boeing CEO will see it and tell her husband to make this deal happen?!

Who know's...it's all a mystery to me.

I think I'll stick with my guess for now, though.

At least until Parker announces the big Boeing order.

And has to call his friends in Paris and break the bad news.



Abe

Breaking news....BottomFeeder says that for some time now, Boeing has been courting US Airways!

Unfortunately I couldn't open the link to that article...or maybe it wasn't there, I'm not sure.

 

[BottomFeeder]

Huh?


Anything's possible...

Maybe Parker is personal friends with Bill Gates and he'll pony up the cash?!

Or maybe Parker will go on Oprah to talk about the merger and the wife of the Boeing CEO will see it and tell her husband to make this deal happen?!

Who know's...it's all a mystery to me.

I think I'll stick with my guess for now, though.

At least until Parker announces the big Boeing order.

And has to call his friends in Paris and break the bad news.
Abe

Breaking news....BottomFeeder says that for some time now, Boeing has been courting US Airways!

Unfortunately I couldn't open the link to that article...or maybe it wasn't there, I'm not sure.

abe,

dont worry the news will be comming shortly and dont lose any sleep since you cant change it

 

[abe]

abe,

dont worry the news will be comming shortly and dont lose any sleep since you cant change it

Don't worry, I'll lose sleep....but only because I have an 8 month old with an ear infection.

As far as your "Boeing courting US Airways" bit, I hope it happens for you.

You see, unlike a lot of people on this board, I don't see the need for your airline to go down in flames (like many of the US Airways folks want to see with Delta). We are different carriers, with different goals.

Your company has chosen to compete with the low-cost carriers on their turf (thus your stock ticker...LCC). With an arsenal of 19 widebodies, you merely dabble in the lucrative international stuff. That's great...I wish you luck!

Delta leaders decided that Int'l is the way to go. They are taking big risks on a bunch of new routes. Are they all gonna pan out, probably not. Will most of them...I hope.

In the spirit of Christmas, we can all hope the best for one another, right?

Abe

....Except for the fact that you seem to want a piece of our action...your leaders, apparently unable to pull it off on their own, want to steal the game plan (and routes and planes, etc) from our company.

And you're not going to believe this...it still baffles me...but they think they should run the combined company!

Wow....if that's not misguided arrogance, I don't know what is!

 

[wings396]

I would say this is a no-brainer from Boeing's standpoint:

- Merged airline
-- Smaller than two independent companies. A smaller company buys fewer aircraft
-- Floods the market with used aircraft.

- Independent companies
-- One loyal Boeing buyer with huge fleet replacement needs in the future. Future fleet plans call for only two aircraft types. Boeing narrowbody (737NG/797) and Boeing widebody (787).

-- One loyal Airbus customer with new Airbus narrowbody fleet that may or may not order Boeing aircraft in the future.

- They have nothing to gain by a merger as DL has already settled with them and agreed to buy the remaining aircraft orders some of which they will resell.

- They have much to lose from the combination as they trade a sure Boeing customer for one that has a large Airbus fleet and significant A-350 orders on the books.

- Lastly, a takeover greatly extends bankruptcy for DL extending the time until payoff for all creditors. Not a good thing in the ultra-volatile airline industry.

We all know that there is too much capacity in the industry already, so counting on huge orders from 2 separate airlines is not realistic. Where is DL going to use all of these new A/C? Most, if not all are replacements and once the fleet is updated that will be it. There has been no domestic growth among any of the majors for years now, with the exception of tons of RJ's if you want to count that. Most mainline fleets have shrunk to a great degree, with the exception of SWA, B6, and Airtran.

 

[PHLfa88]

And the guys out in Atlanta are still giving the middle finger salute.

Real Classy Man!! Not ALL The DL Employees Feel The Same Way.

 

[wings396]

I would feel no loyalty to a company that cut my wages and benefits period. The top brass at DL could care less about the front line little folks, and if anyone thinks different they have fooled you well. As long as a paycheck continues to come in, who the hell cares what Airline's name is on it, or if it comes from ATL or PHX. I went thru a few mergers myself, and never got too concerned about it. I just ordered new uniforms, and learned to answer the phones using a different Airline's name. It doesn't much matter where you work, as you are just a number...Get used to it, and get over all of this loyal to your company crap. Any of you think that Grinstein or any of his boys at the top lost their pensions, or anything else that can compare to what the employees did? Sure they may have taken a hit in the wallet too, but when your making what they are, it is just pocket change to them. My retired relative that was as loyal to DL as could be, just had their medical beneifits go from around $50 per month to nearly $300 beginning in January. As much as I would like to post what they have to say about DL now, I can't because I would be banned from the board. I would be willing to bet that none of the DL executives are in the same boat.

 

[Flufdriver]

I would feel no loyalty to a company that cut my wages and benefits period. The top brass at DL could care less about the front line little folks, and if anyone thinks different they have fooled you well. As long as a paycheck continues to come in, who the hell cares what Airline's name is on it, or if it comes from ATL or PHX. I went thru a few mergers myself, and never got too concerned about it. I just ordered new uniforms, and learned to answer the phones using a different Airline's name. It doesn't much matter where you work, as you are just a number...Get used to it, and get over all of this loyal to your company crap. Any of you think that Grinstein or any of his boys at the top lost their pensions, or anything else that can compare to what the employees did? Sure they may have taken a hit in the wallet too, but when your making what they are, it is just pocket change to them. My retired relative that was as loyal to DL as could be, just had their medical beneifits go from around $50 per month to nearly $300 beginning in January. As much as I would like to post what they have to say about DL now, I can't because I would be banned from the board. I would be willing to bet that none of the DL executives are in the same boat.

Wings...well said!! Never seen anythig like this. This was the same bunch that wanted to shut the airline down a few month's ago walking the picket line...my my have things changed!!!

 

[abe]

Wings...well said!! Never seen anythig like this. This was the same bunch that wanted to shut the airline down a few month's ago walking the picket line...my my have things changed!!!

I don't think you guys understand. This isn't a loyalty thing to Grinstein...this is making a reasonable judgement of the benefits to us (or lack of) with this deal.

The fact that Grinstein and the boys happen to feel the same way we do makes it easier....but make no mistake, if he was on your side of the argument, we'd be fighting him too.

I'm curious why you two are so much on the Parker bandwagon? It's easy for me to see why USA320Pilot is....he's a cheerleader for whoever sits in the executive suite. A quick search of these boards will tell you that. From Wolf to Ganwal to Siegel to Lakefield...he's loved them all. He even had it bad for that character from Alabama, Bronner!

But you guys are right there with him on this one. It's interesting to me that you both worship Parker even though he apparently hasn't put US Airways in a position to succeed as a stand alone carrier?!

I mean, if he had done his job, you wouldn't be in this mess...needing a deal so bad that you have to attempt a hostile takeover? That's pretty desperate stuff!

Grinstein, with all his faults and missteps, has done his job. I certainly didn't like the way he did it at times, but it must be working. If it wasn't, I guess you guys wouldn't want to buy us so bad, right?

Bottom line, I don't trust any of them. But right now, Grinstein is the lesser of two evils.

Abe

 

[luv2fly]

Real Classy Man!! Not ALL The DL Employees Feel The Same Way.

Well, actually I was referring to DL management, but I guess you could include some employees as well.

 

[NYCDelta]

I don't think you guys understand. This isn't a loyalty thing to Grinstein...this is making a reasonable judgement of the benefits to us (or lack of) with this deal.

But you guys are right there with him on this one. It's interesting to me that you both worship Parker even though he apparently hasn't put US Airways in a position to succeed as a stand alone carrier?!

Abe

I'm not sure they worship Parker. I think some people feel that if we merge, it will increase our opportunites as a whole. The problem is, even though the end result would be a bigger airline with many more destinations, getting to that point would be extremely difficult and things would be a complete cluster***k!

 

[wings396]

I'm not sure they worship Parker. I think some people feel that if we merge, it will increase our opportunites as a whole. The problem is, even though the end result would be a bigger airline with many more destinations, getting to that point would be extremely difficult and things would be a complete cluster***k!

That is correct, I don't worship Parker at all. I do think that he has what it takes to lead US with or without this merger. Being that US hasn't had anybody with any type of a vision for years, Parker seems as if he really wants to run an airline. The last few that were in the drivers seat, only had visions that were as long as their noses. Wolfe was only there to sell US to UA, and did a bit of freshening up beforehand.
As far as Grinstien, he and his top brass are only fearful of their positions, not yours. It is very rare today to find the management of any company that puts their employees concerns ahead of their wallets.
As for me, I am currently furloughed after more than 25 years of sevice, and have very little chance of returning to work. What does or doesn't happen here will most likely not benefit me in any way. As I have said in other posts, I have had close ties to DL for a long time, and can only wish that I were still employed so that I could have possibly been a part of the combined airline...

 

[zethya]

.....But you guys are right there with him on this one. It's interesting to me that you both worship Parker even though he apparently hasn't put US Airways in a position to succeed as a stand alone carrier?!

I mean, if he had done his job, you wouldn't be in this mess...needing a deal so bad that you have to attempt a hostile takeover? That's pretty desperate stuff!....

Abe

Apparently CitiBank (and the Stock Market) don't agree with your assessment of Parker. After all, CitiBank just gave him $7.2B to support the acquisition!

 

[BoeingBoy]

After all, CitiBank just gave him $7.2B to support the acquisition!

Technically not true. Citi agreed to loan US the money if the merger goes through, presumably with assurances of sufficient collateral to insure that they're not at risk. Just like buying a house (for most of us, anyway). The bank "gives" us the money and we "give" the bank ownership of the house if we don't pay it back.

Jim

 

[BottomFeeder]

Technically not true. Citi agreed to loan US the money if the merger goes through, presumably with assurances of sufficient collateral to insure that they're not at risk. Just like buying a house (for most of us, anyway). The bank "gives" us the money and we "give" the bank ownership of the house if we don't pay it back.

Jim

Jim

You twisted what the guy said. Abe was belittling Parker and his abilities. Then the reply to abe was that Citi has enough confidence in Parker to loan him the money.

Yes technically it is a loan ( have you ever known a bank to just give money away) More importantly Citi would not loan the money if they were not confident in the plan. Because they too could lose their monies in another BK.