Teamster are for DOH in integration

[chellow]

I read a interesting post in the UAL forum, It was stated that the Teamsters are pushing integration at UAL by DOH, for layoff and recalls. If the IBT gets in AA that will give the TWU guys all their seniority back and may possibly give a Fleet service clerk seniority above you even if he just became an AMT.

This post states it’s court imposed. I say this is baloney!

http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54253-teamster-representation-questions/page__st__12

No, xUT, I will post here and respond to questions, but do not wish to be baited in to a #### session with a deaf audience. AMFA in Miami, as well as all of you who have responded to his original question (only one of you a UAL mechanic, by the way) have provided significant history on this site that you are simply against the Teamsters no matter what I or others may answer. You or others will undoubtedly pick apart and try to dismiss as lies anything I say in a poor attempt to spread your anger and distrust.

However, for any of the others who may come across this thread, here you go.

First, the hangar. There are two new hangars planned on the East coast to facilitate both new aircraft purchase orders and work formerly sent to outside contractors. The Teamsters are working to bring back formerly contracted out maintenance such as MOD work on various aircraft models. Work on UA aircraft formerly done by Timco on the East Coast is now being done by CO stations also on the East Coast who are now UA mechanics.

On your lay off question; there are no lay offs under the terms of the agreement in place until we reach a single contract. There is no bumping.

Your scenario for seniority in regards to lay off does not exist because LAX has recalled all of the formerly furloughed mechanics at UAL including those that may have been commuting from ORD. Many stations in fact have exhausted their recall lists. There are still many furloughed mechanics out there and some from closed stations such as Indy but the new contract is designed to recall in order of seniority. If you are the most senior and displaced from your station, you will be recalled before any one junior is allowed to accept any vacancy. In fact, per Article 5, there are NO VACANCIES while an active recall list exists.

You also questioned the merging of the seniority list and got a bogus answer from Third Seat Hero. I say it is bogus and he knows why. As I have explained many times before: the seniority issue at UAL is not an issue for the Teamsters or any union representing mechanics. TSH knows this. It does not matter what the unions say on the subject of mechanic seniority at UAL. UAL was sued in federal court years ago and the result of that suit dictates our seniority, not the union or management. Our list will be merged according to court order. This court order happens to be in line with the philosophies of the IBT which is hire date for lay off and recall, craft date for everything else. For most of us mechanics the two dates are one in the same but for some there is an adjustment.

The Teamsters did not come right out and take a hard line stand on this which upset many of us but I am now gaining a decent understanding of why. Although our seniority is a court order, the contract is clear that negotiations for an amalgamated agreement between two merged carriers can NOT continue until an agreement in seniority is met. The Teamsters were rightly concerned that taking a hard stance would force any mechanic groups in opposition to call for a legal challenge of the law and hold up the process of a new contract for possibly years. Two independent law firms reported that such a challenge would be pointless. A legal firm hired by a group of mechanics who were against hire date in favor of rank ratio also issued the opinion that a civil suit would be a great waste of time and money. Some of us incorrectly believed that the Teamsters were involved in some type of political or organizing stunt in order to hold off any embarrassment, but it is becoming more and more clear that they simply were allowing those who opposed hire date seniority the chance to see for themselves the problems and expense of fighting this lost cause. It is vary apparent to all of us at UA including TSH that date of hire is the most fair basis for merging the seniority list. Some at CO did not see that at first but they are coming to understand that a rank ratio, or crediting years of seniority would not be the right thing to do. The Teamsters allowed the time needed for those groups who opposed it at first to realize the legal walls in place rather than acting like tyrants and telling them what to do. I for one am OK with this now that I know see more of the big picture.

As for the card drive; I have never known a time when amfa has begun a card drive after a contract has been agreed other than a concessionary bankruptcy agreement such as the one we had at UA in the mid 2000's. UA mechanics are earning more money and are better off than we have been in years. There are some issues with payroll and a few management problems, but our new Teamster contract is by far better than anything we have seen from the other two unions which represented us. I expect even more progress from the next agreement which is currently being negotiated. If there was a card drive at UA, it would surely be on the amfa web site. There is none to be found.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

The ONLY Fair way is to intergrate by Classification/Occupational seniority.
Yes some have a DOH because they started on the ramp or where ever. But for recall into your class and craft, layoff, or any other reason the time you have in your class and craft should determine when you get laid off or recalled. This is what we all bid shift and days off by. Company time or DOH is for vacation and company benefits.

If you had previous time in another classification and bumped down, you can get recalled to that goup to maintain you company time. But that should not allow you to get back in as a mechanic if you were working as a gate agent/fleet clerk/baggage handler. Not to gain occ/class seniority.

The DOH with the IBT and the IAM is very similar.

But what ever you call it classification or occupational its the same and only fair way.

How much do we need to keep screwing each other, we have all earned the time we have, T/W off on night shift, gets old.

Having two companies merge should not favor one over the other. All of us have worker at one place or another before our current place of employment.
You gained knowledge each time and bring that to which ever company.

Why do we believe that we should screw the other guy is the right thing to do.
Lets all start to look at it as one giant pool of aircraft mechanics each with different skill sets. But each with time invested, merge by time in our class and craft and let that be the way. FAIR FOR ALL.

 

[1AA]

I read a interesting post in the UAL forum, It was stated that the Teamsters are pushing integration at UAL by DOH, for layoff and recalls. If the IBT gets in AA that will give the TWU guys all their seniority back and may possibly give a Fleet service clerk seniority above you even if he just became an AMT.

This post states it’s court imposed. I say this is baloney!

http://www.airlinefo...t__12

Did you mean TWA instead of TWU?

 

[chellow]

Did you mean TWA instead of TWU?

Yes, If you go by DOH.
I only can go by what Anomaly posted in the UAL forum. That will hurt if it’s true.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Yes, If you go by DOH.
I only can go by what Anomaly posted in the UAL forum. That will hurt if it’s true.

Chello

For most of the UAL mechanics DOH and OCC/class are the same date as he said.

It was ruled by kasher that the TWA got what they got. They will not get the TWA DOH seniority date if we go to the IBT. They were IAM at TWA. Just like I won't get my EAL DOH date if we end up with the IAM.

The idea that anyone who was hired in at any company that was IBT on the ramp then spends 10 yrs in that class and craft, then gets his A&P works for a few yrs then gets laid off out of Title I aircraft maintenance. will get recalled back to work by his DOH before a title I mechanic with less company time who always has been a mechanic is Just CRAZY. A 15 yr title I mechanic will be brought back before the 3 yr occupational guy, no matter what company time. If that is NOT the CASE and the IBT does it by DOH no matter what,
THEN that is just the reason NOT to bring the IBT here to AA.

 

[aapitbull]

I believe we should follow the example set at the SWA/AT intergration, where both sides appoint a committee and negotiated a seniority agreement then let both sides vote on it seperately if the majority on both sides agree then we go with if not we keep negotiating until we reach terms both sides can live with. Is it perfect no but it will most likely bring a agreement we both can live with unlike what the TWU did to TWA. Or the mess that is currently going on at UAL where the IBT represented both sides and nearly 3 years in still do not have a agreement.

The agreement at SWA just shows when you let the members have a say it gets done and when you have a dictatorship like with the TWU, IAM & Teamsters it gets screwed up.

 

[Anomaly]

I believe we should follow the example set at the SWA/AT intergration, where both sides appoint a committee and negotiated a seniority agreement then let both sides vote on it seperately if the majority on both sides agree then we go with if not we keep negotiating until we reach terms both sides can live with. Is it perfect no but it will most likely bring a agreement we both can live with unlike what the TWU did to TWA. Or the mess that is currently going on at UAL where the IBT represented both sides and nearly 3 years in still do not have a agreement.

The agreement at SWA just shows when you let the members have a say it gets done and when you have a dictatorship like with the TWU, IAM & Teamsters it gets screwed up.

Fairytale aapitbull.....all a big fairytale.

The UA mechanic seniority was imposed by the courts and this order is still in effect. It did not take three years for anybody to figure it out. On the other hand, there are very few (if any) mechanics on either side who want this merger to happen. We realize it will anyway and will change all of our work areas more than we want it to. If the seniority list is what has delayed the inevitable, I am happy the Teamsters used it.

Why are you in such a rush to see the merger at UA and CO? Are you as excited for the AA US deal to push through?

 

[xUT]

Fairytale aapitbull.....all a big fairytale.

The UA mechanic seniority was imposed by the courts and this order is still in effect. It did not take three years for anybody to figure it out. On the other hand, there are very few (if any) mechanics on either side who want this merger to happen. We realize it will anyway and will change all of our work areas more than we want it to. If the seniority list is what has delayed the inevitable, I am happy the Teamsters used it.

Why are you in such a rush to see the merger at UA and CO? Are you as excited for the AA US deal to push through?

Here is a copy of the ual consent decree
B) xUT

 

[chellow]

Here is a copy of the ual consent decree
B) xUT

I see, thanks for the info I guess UAL has bad historical laundry in the closet due to that mess with DOH seniority for layoff and recall.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I see, thanks for the info I guess UAL has bad historical laundry in the closet due to that mess with DOH seniority for layoff and recall.

Chellow

As I said earlier if you read the consent decree it mostly talks about classification seniority (IAM) term for occupational (TWU) term. When you bump to a lower classification you get recalled into the classification with the vacancy according to seniority in that classification. Here at AA we don't have that unless you took a slot in a lower class you will not have that seniority. or unless you hired in that classification and have that seniority. IAM and IBT have one list. Title II and title I here at AA have seperate list and title groups. A title I A&P can't bump a title II guy unless he has title II time. But with the IAM and IBT with one list a Utility guy with an A&P can bump a Title I guy as well as a title I guy can bump a title II guy with less company seniority because of the one list.

The IAM or the IBT will tell that AMFA allows that at SWA whats the deal? That was an IAM thing at SWA and that has never been addressed from my knowledge. But it could be changed to be the same as we have it here at AA.
But since it has always been that way at SWA it is part of their contract. NOT AMFA's doing...They say it was that way at NWA as well same thing they were IAM before switching to AMFA.

Here at AA we don't have that in our contract so it does not effect us. If our became the dominent contract after the merger we will not have to worry about that happening. If we merge and a new CBA is put in place then the Bargaining unit elected will have to deal with that as we re-write the next CBA.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Fairytale aapitbull.....all a big fairytale.

The UA mechanic seniority was imposed by the courts and this order is still in effect. It did not take three years for anybody to figure it out. On the other hand, there are very few (if any) mechanics on either side who want this merger to happen. We realize it will anyway and will change all of our work areas more than we want it to. If the seniority list is what has delayed the inevitable, I am happy the Teamsters used it.

Why are you in such a rush to see the merger at UA and CO? Are you as excited for the AA US deal to push through?

Your response is the fairytale.

I don't dispute the concent decree, but your attempt to play the UAL-CAL SLI off as cut and dried imposed by the courts is completely disingenuous. The teamsters driven by the sCAL side were pushing to go back to court to try and remove the concent decree.

If you like I can post a few links to the seniority integration committee reports, or perhaps you'd like to discuss the purpose of the seniority integration survey that the ibt floated at UAL/CAL fiasco that that turned out to be.

While we, minus any last minute sCAL heroics, will end up on a concent decree formed list, AS OF THIS MOMENT, no final list has been finalized

http://www.teamster.org/content/ualcalcmi-mechanics-flash-update-february-9-2013

Hence the issue is not resolved, and as been posted here and other threads the teamsters have been arguing this issue for years now at UAL.

 

[aapitbull]

Fairytale aapitbull.....all a big fairytale.

The UA mechanic seniority was imposed by the courts and this order is still in effect. It did not take three years for anybody to figure it out. On the other hand, there are very few (if any) mechanics on either side who want this merger to happen. We realize it will anyway and will change all of our work areas more than we want it to. If the seniority list is what has delayed the inevitable, I am happy the Teamsters used it.

Why are you in such a rush to see the merger at UA and CO? Are you as excited for the AA US deal to push through?

That is exactly what I said you have no resolution on seniority intergration and it has been nearly three years had both sides came together and negotiated something everyone could live with then you could go to the court and get it to buy off on that agreeement. The truth is that the Teamsters know that the intergration protects them from anyone starting a drive to remove them from the property because no one wants to risk being giving the short end of the stick if their group is the one who starts the revolt so they drag it out to serve their own self interest.

It is interesting you call what I say as a Fairytale yet you do not address the fact that the seniority is done at SWA/AT and their merger began after yours started and 2 seperate unions represented the groups AMFA SWA and Teamsters at AT by the way why did the all powerful IBT just get the cards and a election and boot little old AMFA out:? The answer is simple you cannot lie to people who you represented in the past and the SWA AMT's wanted nothing to do with you.

What the Teamsters are selling at AA is the Fairytale right down to their card count!

 

[1AA]

What the Teamsters are selling at AA is the Fairytale right down to their card count!

Just heard from a Teamsters supporter that a filing is coming real soon. By my count that would be number 3 on the filing claim. The teamsters may eventually file but they will not and they will never have enough cards. You kind of wonder what their flip flopping agenda is from one week to the next.

I always said the teamsters will try to go after our frozen pensions.
This is the most important reason NOT to support the Teamsters in any way or form.

 

[aapitbull]

Just heard from a Teamsters supporter that a filing is coming real soon. By my count that would be number 3 on the filing claim. The teamsters may eventually file but they will not and they will never have enough cards. You kind of wonder what their flip flopping agenda is from one week to the next.

I always said the teamsters will try to go after our frozen pensions.
This is the most important reason NOT to support the Teamsters in any way or form.

Well if they file before the 16th on May we will all know it was just to help the TWU because only a fool would file before the 10 year recalls expire in May it is handing the other side a bat to hit you with.

 

[767 mechanic]

In Dec the reamsters said that they had 50% and were going to file in Jan. In Jan they were going to file in Feb. In Feb it was Mar. Later in Feb they were saying that they were going to file after aa emerged from bankruptcy because it was to risky to file in bankruptcy. Last week they tell the people of Tulsa that they do not have 50% and are going to go door to door in their supposed strong hold of Tulsa. If Tulsa was strong for them you would think that they would be going to the cities that they have had no luck. The cards would be more plentiful in the other cities. The only truthful thing that the reamsters have said is that they do not have 50%. Anally is the clone of overspeed. One works for ibt and one works for the twu and they both lie,tell half truths and do whatever they can to mislead the members.