sw plane goes off the rnway in mdw

[jack mama]

Google Map of MDW

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Was just listening to the NTSB briefing on CNN:

They landed on a 6500 runway with a 10 knot tailwind! Not good. According to the charts in my flight bag, the landing distance they would need on a contaminated runway is 7200 feet.

I really hope that isn't the case guys.

 

[x15]

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How does the pilot get more than 3000 psi out of the system??
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Borescope,

You need to check very carefully how the auto-brakes actually work upon landing and when and how they apply braking in conjunction with the reversers. The fact is, even at auto-brakes set at MAX, they may not necessarily be producing 3,000psi of braking at all times, especially at the very beginning of the landing roll.

 

[MTSUSigEp430]

Was just listening to the NTSB briefing on CNN:

They landed on a 6500 runway with a 10 knot tailwind! Not good. According to the charts in my flight bag, the landing distance they would need on a contaminated runway is 7200 feet.

I really hope that isn't the case guys.

Whoa. So then does this mean it also could indicate ATC error?

So many different ingredients to this accident. It seems to be the sum of many small, but significant factors.

My question is this: where's the focus on the MDW airport manager? He's the person that judges braking action on the runways. He shuts down the runways. He knows he's got short runways, a tail wind, snow accumulation... where's the line where he has to jump in and say 'sorry, can't finish up those 180 operations today guys, ITS NOT SAFE!"

I'm surprised at the lack of this guy (who is porbably getting reamed behind closed doors) is recieving by everyone interested.

 

[LD3]

Wow...it's amazing how compact the airfield is....I never realized how close together the runways are....

 

[JFKbound]

Whoa. So then does this mean it also could indicate ATC error?

The final decision to land someplace ALWAYS ends with el Capitano.

I also think the traffic patterns and runway in use at MDW are often determined by the patterns at ORD.

 

[MTSUSigEp430]

The final decision to land someplace ALWAYS ends with el Capitano.

I also think the traffic patterns and runway in use at MDW are often determined by the patterns at ORD.

I'm not a pilot, but I think you're correct. Personally, as a student of airport admin, my first gut reaction was concerned with the airport manager and his call to keep the runway open. But I am just a student...

 

[wnbubbleboy]

finally people will know what there paying for

It's nice to see you've stopped pulling the wings off of flys to respond.

 

[FM2436]

http://www.faa.gov/arp/pdf/5200-30a.pdf

From the FAA's Advisory Circular 150/5200-30A titled Airport Winter Safety and Operations.

Chapter 2 Section 7 - SAFETY REQUIREMENTS. Snow, ice, and slush should be removed as expeditiously as possible to maintain runways, high-speed turnoffs, and taxiways in a "no worse than wet" condition.

Chapter 2 Section 7a - Airport Operator - Airport operators have a major duty to ensure the safety of operations at their facilities.

Whoever said in a previous post that the FAA will rewrite the rules and regulations regarding airport and aircraft opertions during snow is absolutely correct. I'll bet the FAA will rewrite those requirements to a point where it will be impossible for the aircraft to fly, or the airport to operate, during a snow storm.

Interestingly, it was following the Southwest overrun at Burbank when the FAA deemed the extended runway safety area (ERSA, located at the end of each runway, as one of the highest priority eligible projects under the FAA AIP program. In fact, the construction of ERSA superseded just about all other airport improvement program projects. It really surprises me that Midway apparently does not have any ERSA's at the end of their runways that meet FAA design standards.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The pilot can only press so hard on the pedals. He gets 3000 psi to the brakes. The autobrakes in "Max" apply 3000 psi at wheel spin up. In the split second the pilot takes to get his/her feet pressing on the brakes the autobrakes have already started applying them. That 1/2 a second could be the 300 to 400 feet off the end of the runway. How does the pilot get more than 3000 psi out of the system??

Strictly 737-300/400 only. I don't know about the 737-700.

The autobrakes (except in the RTO setting for T/O) maintain a deceleration rate - the rate depends on which of the three settings is used. As reverse thrust takes effect, the autobrakes reduce braking to maintain the selected deceleration rate (1, 2, or max). Thus, manual braking can result in greater deceleration since it is not automatically reduced to compensate for reverse thrust. This is demonstrated quite simply by disengaging the autobrakes by depressing the brake pedals manually (instead of turning the selector to off) - greater manual braking than the autobrakes are providing is required and certainly available.

Busdrvr is probably right about one thing - autobrakes most likely start applying brakes sooner than a pilot would since only wheel spin-up is needed.

Jim

 

[WorldTraveler]

Again, I'll take Autothrottles, autobrakes and a coupled approach over Chuck Yeager OR your Brother, ANY day.

busdrvr,
we may disagree about the business aspects of the airline industry but I am totally with you on this. It makes no sense to arbitrarily choose not to use highly sophisticated machines and equipment, particularly when operating in risky situations such as this accident involved. MDW is a difficult airport under the best of situations; in weather, it is an accident waiting to happen.

I'll take you as my pilot anyday. Wisdom is knowledge properly appropriated, including knowing one's limitations.

 

[phasersonstun2]

This is a clear-cut case of the woeful state of real-time WX info made available to the airmen. My guess is that the snow was falling faster than the trucks could physically remove it.

The NTSB spokespersons' early emphasis on the tailwind/groundspeed at touchdown was an ominous sign that the pilots and dispatcher are in the bullseye.

Prayers for the kid and family.

 

[Busdrvr]

This is a clear-cut case of the woeful state of real-time WX info made available to the airmen. My guess is that the snow was falling faster than the trucks could physically remove it.

The NTSB spokespersons' early emphasis on the tailwind/groundspeed at touchdown was an ominous sign that the pilots and dispatcher are in the bullseye.

Prayers for the kid and family.

Frankly because we make a BIG and EASY target. you gonna blame boeing or the FAA when you got a easy mark with pockets not nearly a deep, and frankly much lower stakes when the blame is laid?

 

[eolesen]

Some info from the preliminary FDR analysis:

NTSB member Ellen Engleman Conners says the plane hit a fence beside the runway 32 seconds after it touched down. The plane's ground speed was 152 miles per hour as it landed and it hit the fence at about 46 miles per hour, Conners said.

Question for any of the 737 pilots.... isn't that a tad bit fast for a contaminated runway???

 

[CaptianBoomer]

Actually, a B737 lands at that speed most of the time....that is only 132 knots and with a 5 knot tailwind that means 128 knots.

WHERE the jet hit the ground at 132 knots groundspeed will tell the tale of whether this was a pilot issue or a runway surface/mechanical issue.

Boomer