sw plane goes off the rnway in mdw

[Fixed Wing]

the pilots said they applied the brakes manually as soon as they realized something was wrong, said Robert Benzon, National Transportation Safety Board investigator in charge.

One of the first things I learned as a pilot was that there are 2 useless things...
1. Airspace above you
2. Runway behind you

I wonder if once they realized something was wrong they could have applied full power and taken off again for another try?
I am not faulting the crew just asking a question.

 

[FM2436]

Maybe this accident will cause WN to alter it's culture. Sometimes it's wiser to choose what you SHOULD do over what you CAN do.

OTOH, if the city of Chicago wants scheduled jet service into MDW, they should pony up the money to condemn the property necessary to build sufficient overruns. It would no doubt add to the cost of operating into MDW, but the public on the ground and in the air deserve it.

Actually, land acquisition, relocation of property owners, and construction all associated with Extended Runway Safety Areas (includion relocation of existing roads) are eligible for significant funding under the FAAs Airport Improvement Program (AIP). I believe at medium/large hub airports the FAA pays 75% of the total cost of such projects. The airport's remaining share could be paid by the $4.50 Passenger Facility Charge impose upon each revenue departing passenger from MDW. Essentially, MDW could get these ERSA built free to them and not costing MDW a dime.

 

[x15]

I've been away from this site for awhile. One thing hasn't changed. Busdriver is still classless. I'd bet he's a former fighter pilot who's opinion of himself far exceeds that of his peers' of him.

Especially classless is his attacking another carrier's FAA approved procedures and saying goofy things like they take "short-cuts" and should close some of the busiest airports they operate out of ....all because his airline can't compete. By all means, if you can't compete in the marketplace, after having screwed your creditors and employees, be sure and slam the competition when they have an accident even before all the facts are out and attempt to drive public opinion and get regulators to close their airport instead. Simply an act of desperation and employee self-survival.

 

[nbmcg01]

My thoughts and prayers are with the family of the little boy, the others injured, the Capt., F/O, and F/As, and all of the SWA family.

 

[Busdrvr]

Especially classless is his attacking another carrier's FAA approved procedures and saying goofy things like they take "short-cuts" and should close some of the busiest airports they operate out of ....all because his airline can't compete. By all means, if you can't compete in the marketplace, after having screwed your creditors and employees, be sure and slam the competition when they have an accident even before all the facts are out and attempt to drive public opinion and get regulators to close their airport instead. Simply an act of desperation and employee self-survival.

How Classless of you X15. I'm sure you'll get an earful from Rhino on this. Here you are talking about money when a kid was killed. You are truely shameless. Far be it for anyone to even think SWA could quit cutting corners at the expense of safety. That brings the typical classless "but we made money" BS. But since you are accusing me of of "slamming SWA befoere the facts are out" (should we all wait a full year and let a potentially dangerous situation continue until the final report is issued and "all the facts are out"?), it is now my understanding that a memo went out ot all the pilots approving the use of autobrakes on landing effective monday. So am I to understand it is wrong for someone else to have opinions on the cause of the accident and suggest measures to prevent another tragedy, but it's OK for SWA to do the same? Is this step the first in many more to come that will be a de facto admittence on SWA's part that they weren't operting as safely as possible?

Prediction: As more information comes out, it will be surmised that the reason the reversers did not deploy in a timely manner was the cross wind corrections applied during the handflown approach and landing. One more reason a handflown cat III approach was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[KCFlyer]

How Classless of you X15. I'm sure you'll get an earful from Rhino on this. Here you are talking about money when a kid was killed. You are truely shameless. Far be it for anyone to even think SWA could quit cutting corners at the expense of safety. That brings the typical classless "but we made money" BS. But since you are accusing me of of "slamming SWA befoere the facts are out" (should we all wait a full year and let a potentially dangerous situation continue until the final report is issued and "all the facts are out"?), it is now my understanding that a memo went out ot all the pilots approving the use of autobrakes on landing effective monday. So am I to understand it is wrong for someone else to have opinions on the cause of the accident and suggest measures to prevent another tragedy, but it's OK for SWA to do the same? Is this step the first in many more to come that will be a de facto admittence on SWA's part that they weren't operting as safely as possible?

Prediction: As more information comes out, it will be surmised that the reason the reversers did not deploy in a timely manner was the cross wind corrections applied during the handflown approach and landing. One more reason a handflown cat III approach was an accident waiting to happen.

Bus...seems to me that it's pretty easy to pontificate about what was right or wrong, or how much money was saved because corners were cut when one is sitting in a nice cozy den in Denver instead of the left or right seat of an airliner in flight. Not just this accident, but damn near any other, you are "they shouldn't have done that". Makes me think that if you were still flying and the reported weather at your destination was scattered showers with a 10 knot wind, you'd divert "just in case".

 

[lovedandlost]

My (-800) books aren't what they used to be, but they say reverser deployment requires ground air sensing to sense ground OR less than 10 feet RA. Doesn't say anything more specific than that. I've heard stories of people going into reverse while still airborne (less than 10 feet). There is in interlock which prevents the reverser levers from moving beyond a certain point until the sleeves open. My SPECULATION is that they tried to go into reverse quickly due to conditions/runway length and had to wait for the interlock. I also GUESS the engines/reversers/interlock worked properly and it just seemed like a long time to the understandably anxious crew. My reason is that it seems unlikely that there would be a problem with both reversers.

p.s. Let me add, for the record, that I'm a crappy pilot. I'm sincerely confident that both these guys are better pilots than I am. If I say something should have been done better or a judgement was faulty, I don't mean to say I would have been better in the circumstances. I mean this in all sincerity. I just think pilot discussion is good.

 

[Busdrvr]

My (-800) books aren't what they used to be, but they say reverser deployment requires ground air sensing to sense ground OR less than 10 feet RA. Doesn't say anything more specific than that. I've heard stories of people going into reverse while still airborne (less than 10 feet). There is in interlock which prevents the reverser levers from moving beyond a certain point until the sleeves open. My SPECULATION is that they tried to go into reverse quickly due to conditions/runway length and had to wait for the interlock. I also GUESS the engines/reversers/interlock worked properly and it just seemed like a long time to the understandably anxious crew. My reason is that it seems unlikely that there would be a problem with both reversers.

Outstanding information. Thanks!!

"Bus...seems to me that it's pretty easy to pontificate about what was right or wrong, or how much money was saved because corners were cut when one is sitting in a nice cozy den in Denver instead of the left or right seat of an airliner in flight. Not just this accident, but damn near any other, you are "they shouldn't have done that"."

Well fricken DUH. If an accident happened, then pretty much by default, "THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT". I have NOT attacked this crew. They were put in a VERY tough situation and things went badly. If the approach was legal, and I'm assuming it was, then by all rights, I can't second guess flying it. They aren't on the ground, they don't know what is exactly meant by other pilots subjective pireps. This accident will likely have been caused by a multitude of small items that "snowballed" My issue has always been and continues to be the part the managemnt of SWA played in throwing a bunch more snow into the ball in the name of "cost control". Now again, I've been very consistant, I've cited culture and the cost saving at all cost attitude and mindset as something that would one day kill somebody. You always responded with the past safety record. Now what should we do? should we burry our collective head in the sand, or RECOGNIZE that costs can be cut TOO far. Would you feel differently if it was your child, or would you still be telling us how much money SWA saved you on your last trip to Dallas?

 

[scuba]

Bus, KCFlyer can't fly from MCI to DAL until the 13th. Two more days away. Therefore if he is going to the Dallas area Today or MON he will have to fly to DFW and pay AA the fare, or do the two step via TUL, OKC. So I don't think his saving a dollar on the fare has anything to do with this instance of WN flying into an airport with inadequate space for safe opperations during a snow storm. Some other pilot stated he was in and out of ORD at the same time but was grateful for the 13,000 foot runway. Had WN been in/out of ORD this entire topic would be moot.

BTW, what is the length of DAL and DFW runways? A little ice storm in Dallas and the setting could be different but would the results be the same?

 

[Phoenix]

It's been years since I've flown one, but I thought the 737's speedbrakes will auto-stow when the thust levers are pushed up to go around thrust.

Of course, if the levers are not forward enough to make the stow switch, the spoiler will remain out if deployed by hand.

You are correct. They are supposed to.

 

[Phoenix]

I have been watching SWA cut corners, land downwind, demand non-preferred runways, land long and hot, cutoff other traffic and use excessive speed for years.....and I mean years.

I thought that BUR would be their wakeup call, but now that they have killed an innocent, maybe they will finally get it.

To land downwind on a short, contaminated runway is a criminal act and that Captain should be treated as one.

Go ahead, flame away, but I will ask the domestic, non-SWA pilots on this board to chime in.

The cowboy culture is alive and well.

Time for a NASIP.

I think it odd that you picked this to be your first post...

I can say that I have witnessed the same thing (for years)... SouthWest going way faster and cutting corners in ways that I would not. They taxi like they are on the race track. And ATC knows who they can pinch into a long approach string without the dude slowing down and causing a traffic jam.

BUT I think that the SW pilots are very selective of when they go fast and that they taylor their agressiveness to all the factors involved.

Lets face it. Not one of us wishes we had to do that approach in those conditions. Not even with it coupled up and auto brakes (and auto brakes ARE better). There were simply no margins for error.

We have all flown an approach like that one and, if we had not already figure it out, we gained an appreciation for how d**n important it is for every person and part of the whole system (that brought this plane to this landing phase) to be competent and alert (and a little lucky when the first two aren't enough.)

The NTSB will report on what happened and we will all take a look at our habbit patterns to reduce our reliance on a little luck.

 

[Phoenix]

Max autobrakes is not as effective as full manual braking.
Boeing will tell you that max autobrakes on the 737 is not as effective as full manual braking for shorter stopping distance. The autobrakes "ramp up" slowly and don't provide full system pressure to the anti-skid valves and work to provide a set deceleration in conjunction with the thrust reversers. FULL and IMMEDIATE 3,000PSI brake pressure ONLY occurs in RTO. If you PLAN to use manual full braking immediately, you'll actually stop in a shorter distance. If you don't know how, or feel you can't do that, you are certainly better off with auto-brakes. NTSB has asked Boeing to do tests in the past and THOSE WERE THE RESULTS. Again, it's sort of scary seeing how confidentily pilots post things when in fact, they are wrong ....just like CNN does. One has to rememeber this internet site is not necessarily factual or the official Boeing or NTSB site.

If I am an aviation god,
- that is ready to stomp the brakes as soon as I hit,
- while adjusting for the fact that when I start to break I have only seen terra ferma for about 15 seconds,
- I can't see very far down the runway in order to go straight,
- the whole world is white,
- there is no horizon,
- I feel like a fish with goggles in a jug of milk,
- I am getting goosed by a gusting cornering tail wind,
- the winds are swirling differently now that I am below the tree line,
- I am listening to the tower ask the plane in front of me if he is clear of the runway but he doesn't respond because he is in the middle of switching to ground (d**n I wish we were on single freq already),
- the guy waiting number one forgot to turn off his lights,
- the white center line (where my braking action is valid) is sorta covered with the snow,(oh I hope I can get both trucks in the zone.)
- I am getting out of my crab so that if I am lucky enough to hit the center line I can stay on it,
- the streaks of snow flashing in my landing lights are producing a false reference for virtical,
- I am remembering to land firmly so my squat switch is not delayed,
- I am working the throttles to keep my airspeed pegged because the runway and conditions suck,
- and I asked my copilot to call my speed because I have to keep my eyes out into the milkbowl to flare but his tongue is tied,
- I'm trying to get the throttles over the backstop to deploy the thrusters,
- the spoilers aren't deployed immediately because we had a short gust as we touched that made it a greaser and the squat switch was delayed

BUT I AM AN aviation god,I was not distracted from applying 3000PSI at the exact first opportunity and am continuing to do so while I work the rudder pedals to keep on center line that I still can't see, and release the yoke and rely on my copilot (who is also an aviation god)to put in crosswind controls as I take the tiller throughout the rest of the landing.

Or I can put aside my pride, reduce my task load, and let the auto brakes start breaking for me while I watch the spoilers and thrust reversers deploy, and then max-manually break soon after touch down.

Yours Truly,

Aviation Mortal

 

[Phoenix]

"If someone gets an advantage by cutting corners, you either have to, or you lose money. What do you say we establish some baselines for the industry, and prohibit the BS of certain carriers getting "special" deals to deviate. You in?"

Sure! If a money losing airline can screw it's creditors, screw the investors, dump contracts, screw employees, break retirement promises, dump loyal employees out on the street creating a nightmare for them, all as a means to become competitive with airlines that always operated profitably without ever screwing those people....bring it on.

Umm... you are mostly describing ALPA. I think the challenge was regarding airlines.

Thank you for the nice compliment.

Is that you 320?

Regards,

hip Cay

 

[B.O.B.]

Reverse Thrusters Cited in Midway Crash

By ******* * ******, Associated Press Writer

4 hours ago

CHICAGO - The reverse thrusters that should have slowed a Southwest Airlines jetliner before it slid off a runway and into a busy street didn't immediately kick in when the pilots tried to deploy them, federal investigators said Saturday after interviewing the crew.

The flight attendants said they could tell the Boeing 737 wasn't slowing after it touched down in the snow Thursday evening, and the pilots said they applied the brakes manually as soon as they realized something was wrong, said Robert Benzon, National Transportation Safety Board investigator in charge.

"They all said it was a smooth landing but they could sense a lack of deceleration," Benzon said.

The plane, with 98 passengers aboard, slid off a 6,500-foot runway at Midway Airport, through a fence and into street traffic, where it hit two cars and killed a 6-year-old boy riding with his family. Ten people, most of them on the ground, were injured.

Funeral arrangements are being made for Joshua Woods, and an attorney for Woods says a trust fund for the boy's family also is being created. Woods, his two brothers, mother and father were passengers in one of the cars.

Attorney Ronald A. Stearney says Woods' father, Anthony, was released from the hospital yesterday. He suffered several fractures to his face and back of his head. The boy's brothers suffered only cuts and bruises. Their mother left the hospital last week.

Investigators are still trying to determine how much of a role the braking equipment played in the accident.

Because of the blowing snow, none of the air traffic controllers actually saw the plane land, but more than 10 cameras have been identified that could provide additional information, including details about the runway conditions, Benzon said.

On Saturday, workers used a crane with a sling to lift the damaged airliner off the city street and into a hangar for further inspections. The plane's voice and data recorders have already been sent to Washington for analysis, NTSB member Ellen Engleman Conners said.

Southwest said the captain piloting the plane has been with the airline for more than 10 years, and the first officer has flown with Southwest for 2 1/2 years. It was the first fatal crash in the airline's 35-year history.

Though the airport had about 7 inches of snow at the time, aviation officials said conditions were acceptable. Southwest chief executive Gary Kelly said on Friday that the plane had recently had a maintenance check and showed no signs of problems.

Midway _ built in 1923 and surrounded by houses and businesses _ is among nearly 300 U.S. commercial airports without 1,000-foot buffer zones at the ends of runways.

Safety experts suggest the airports guard against accidents by using beds of crushable concrete that can slow an aircraft if it slides off the runway's end.

The crushable concrete beds _ called Engineered Material Arresting Systems _ are installed at 18 runways at 14 airports. They have stopped dangerous overruns three times since May 1999 at Kennedy Airport in New York.

Chicago Department of Aviation spokeswoman Wendy Abrams could not immediately say whether an arresting system had been considered at Midway.

Some pilots say relatively short runways like Midway's pose a challenge in icy or snowy weather, forcing them to touch down as close as possible to the beginning of the runway to allow more braking time.

"It's not a place you can be a little off," said Richard Ward, a retired United Airlines pilot who occasionally flew into Midway. "You don't have the variable of a long runway to correct any errors."

The damaged nose of the Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 ... View attachment 3806

 

[BoeingBoy]

Prediction: As more information comes out, it will be surmised that the reason the reversers did not deploy in a timely manner was the cross wind corrections applied during the handflown approach and landing. One more reason a handflown cat III approach was an accident waiting to happen.

As a disclaimer, my Jepps are at the airport so my info comes from on-line sources....

It appears thet MDW doesn't have a CAT III approach to any runway, or even a CAT II. So a coupled approach to an autoland was impossible unless the -700 is significantly different in that respect from the -300/400.

Assuming the above is true, it has no bearing on this accident whether WN allows autoland or not, whether they use HUD's to hand fly the approach or coupled approaches. The last couple of hundred feet of this approach and landing would be hand flown irregardless.

On another note, you mentioned in an earlier post that the autobrakes could be providing all the braking effectiveness available given the runway conditions. That is possibly true. However, the only way for a pilot to know for sure is to override the autobrakes by applying more brake pressure with manual braking.

Unless, of course, you're advocating that a crew faced with an airplane decelerating too slowly to stop in the available runway just assume that no more braking is available because the autobrakes are used.

If media reports are accurate (a big if), this crew did have autobrakes selected. But faced with an apparent lack of deceleration, they attempted to get more braking effectiveness by overriding the autobrakes.

Jim