sw plane goes off the rnway in mdw

[cappytan]

At least I got my laughs today.....

I guess our profession is being taken over by computer programers - if it's not automated it's can't be done by mere mortals.

Call me old fashioned....

Yes, call me old fashioned. A throwback to a time when automation was a tool to be used, not a crutch to be relied on. A throwback to a time when pilots were expected to perform at least as well as the automation.

Jim

BoeingMan....There's nothing wrong with being old fashioned. One of my first Challenger 601 sim sessions made me a little crazy. The instructor "insisted" I engage the autopilot after the gear was in the wells. And this was a general "get familiar" session. What? Are you serious? And to top it off, my copilot (from another company who had experience in the airplane) said "yeah, you can't hand-fly this plane smoothly"......oh boy. Well, I didn't listen to them, learned how to "be a pilot" in this airplane and to this day still do all jet flying by hand below FL180. You are absolutely right, the gadgets and gizmos are there to help our workload, not replace it.

Somebody made a remark several pages back that they would rather have auto (everything) than Chuck Yeager....oh well, I guess at 42 years old and 4600 hours in a dozen different corporate jets....I'm old fashion too....nice to meet ya!

Maybe that's why the Airbus aircraft scare me just a bit...hey, maybe I want to roll it 90 degrees to avoid hitting the other guy.....call me crazy..... B)

 

[lovedandlost]

Further, the more salient part of the discussion should be if the crew followed SWA's contaminated runway guidelines for tailwinds. I can't land my aircraft with fair braking and more than a 5 knot tailwind component without being in violation of the standards set for landing on a contaminated surface.

Boomer

I agree this is a huge issue. My ops specs also would have precluded this approach in the 737-800 (max 5 kts tailwind with braking action fair, max 0 kts tailwind with braking action poor).

LandL

 

[x15]

Interesting, from another web site:

"Every aircraft that departs with Type IV on the wings loses that fluid when or shortly before they rotate, and usually at MDW with about 2,000-1,500 feet of runway remaining. The Type IV fluid is almost like a thin jelly with the idea that whatever precip you get on the fluid will come off with the fluid at rotation leaving you with a clean wing. This leaves the last ¼ to 1/3 of the runway with a bunch of slippery de-ice fluid on it. BTW, I'm not sure what happened to the SWA plane during the approach & landing phase, but there is no way that the fluid could have helped in the deceleration phase. Just food for thought guys, something to think about... I just hope the NTSB considers this, too...!!!"

 

[corl737]

This leaves the last ¼ to 1/3 of the runway with a bunch of slippery de-ice fluid on it.

[...]

I just hope the NTSB considers this, too...!!!"

At the intial NTSB press conference on Thursday night they commented on previous pilot reports of the first 2/3s being "fair" and the last 1/3 being "poor". There wasn't any statement whether or not the crew received this information.

 

[av8or]

Did I read the Captain was a 10 yr VETERAN and the F/O had 3 yrs. What a joke our junior pilot on the bottom has 19 to 20 yrs. That's an F/O

and your point is what?

:down: ass...

 

[corl737]

The crew, to my understanding, did NOT use autobrakes, as it would have been a violation of SOP.

Correct. It would have been a violation of the FAA-approved flight manual.

Could you clear up something for us, since no one at SWA seems to know.... What are the conditions that are required for TR deployment on the -300. the reason I'm wondering about the 300 is that SWA may have stipulate similar settings for it's 700 to keep fleet commonality.

For both the -300/500 and -700, either the air/ground safety sensor (squat switch) must be in ground mode (compressed) OR either radio altimeter indicating less than 10 feet.

 

[corl737]

Contaminated runway = no wheel spin up = no auto spoiler deployment = no strut compression = no thrust reversers. All on a 6500' runway.

According to the Boeing 737-700 systems manual:

wheel spin-up is not a consideration for thrust reverser deployment. TRs are independent of wheel speed and may be deployed when the air/ground safety sensor in in ground mode (any strut compressed) OR if either the #1 or #2 radio altimeter indicates <10 feet.

Flight spoilers will auto-deploy with wheel spin up of 60 knots. However, if any strut compression is detected - even without wheel spin up - the flight spoilers will deploy automatically. Ground spoiler extension requires compression of the right main landing gear strut.

 

[Busdrvr]

According to the Boeing 737-700 systems manual:

wheel spin-up is not a consideration for thrust reverser deployment. TRs are independent of wheel speed and may be deployed when the air/ground safety sensor in in ground mode (any strut compressed) OR if either the #1 or #2 radio altimeter indicates <10 feet.

Flight spoilers will auto-deploy with wheel spin up of 60 knots. However, if any strut compression is detected - even without wheel spin up - the flight spoilers will deploy automatically. Ground spoiler extension requires compression of the right main landing gear strut.

good stuff, thanks!! is there a period of time the RA must be less than 10 ft (like 3 seconds?).

 

[corl737]

good stuff, thanks!! is there a period of time the RA must be less than 10 ft (like 3 seconds?).

No time delay indicated in the manual. That being said, there is a slight lag between the time the reversers begin to deploy and when usable reverse thrust is available. The reverser sleeves have to get at least 60% extended before the thrust levers can move out of idle. While it takes only a couple of seconds for the reverser sleeves to translate aft it can seem like an eternity in some situations.

 

[john john]

WN pilots make more money when they fly less. The other majors make more money when they fly more. Does WN pilots cut corners??????????????

 

[corl737]

WN pilots make more money when they fly less. The other majors make more money when they fly more. Does WN pilots cut corners??????????????

If you're making the assertion that SWA pilots - or any professional airline pilot for that matter - would sacrifice safety for a buck you're way out of touch with reality. All pilots have one overriding goal that is the same regardless of the way the pay is computed -- operate as safely as possible based on your ability and make the best decisions possible given the information you have available.

I have no clue what your background is other than 99% of your 240 posts have been in the USAirways forum. We welcome your participation on this forum, too! Can you share a little of your background with us so we don't have to guess that you're a plant from the sleazy law firm of Kreindler & Kreindler.

 

[JAMAKE1]

As a casual observer to this recent accident, I too am wondering why an evacuation wasn't initiated. Regardless of the snowy conditions outside, the fact that the nose gear had collapsed, the engines had sustained heavy damage, and the aircraft was resting in the middle of the street, such conditions would give me cause to intiate an aircraft evacuation. Yes, there may be some injuries caused in the process, but what about the chance of a fire erupting from punctured fuel lines or from the crushed vehicles? I realize it is easy to make a judgement outside the context of the situation, but in all my years of training, those conditions appeared to be ripe for initiating a prompt evacuation of the aircraft. I will be very interested in the findings of the NTSB with regard to this matter....

Sympathies to the boy's family and to those who were involved.

 

[DCT JVL]

Seems to me an awful lot of hirsute professional aviators are making a lot of assumptions.

Kinda wondering what being hairy has to do with any of this.

 

[JAMAKE1]

I was wondering the same thing..."astute" perhaps?

 

[corl737]

I realize it is easy to make a judgement outside the context of the situation, ....

I applaud your knowing that you weren't at the scene, had no first hand knowledge of the situation and thus are in no position to determine the proper course of action to be taken at the time of the incident. Seriously, your statement is miles ahead of the media gurus who have already claimed they have all determined the answers to every question, even those not yet asked!

Many people don't realize what you know -- that many years of training only broaden your knowledge base, they don't give you all the answers to every situation that you may face. In most every event, its the first time the pilot has encountered that exact set of circumstances so decisions cannot be "canned" responses.

By the way, I wasn't there either.