StonewAAlled

[OldGuy@AA]

I agree with OldGuy on this. The problem isn't with the FSCs themselves, who could blame anybody for getting as much as they can. The problem comes when the company agrees to an amount it will give the TWU during negotiations. That is when the TWU starts the wealth redistribution process. Now the last few times at negotiations, it was to save some already doomed for RIF - ovhl people to keep their jobs a little longer at the expense of better pay and benefits for the Mech and related - but mostly line AMTs. As usual, the TWU maintained as many dues payers jobs as possible.for the greater good of the international - to hell with the people still on the clock. We are tired of the forced TWU charitable contribution that we can't write off.

AMFA can not take over soon enough. Looking forward to seeing them on the ballot after the merger.

Thanks Vortilon. You said so well what I have been trying to say.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well, for guys like me, and probably Oldguy as well, our journey started with A&P school, then working fly by night carriers or going into the military for five or more years because the majors were not interested unless you had five years of heavy turbine experience, so for most of us we were looking at a seven year investment in being a mechanic when we started at AA. So maybe you can understand a little resentment when others get in without all that.

I understand the resentment somewhat. Current career mechanics believe there is a conspiracy to devalue their skill set and license using cheaper, unlicensed, unskilled labor. They are correct in this belief.

And remaining an FSC is?

No, but being a Fleet Service Clerk did not cost me $9563.50 and 18 months of my time. That comment was not meant to trivialize your license and schooling. I was only pointing out that pay and benefits in the industry seem to be in decline and I don't see that being a good return on my investment at this time. Perhaps that will change in the future.

Eventually, even with AA lowering the barriers to entry there will be a serious shortage of mechanics. Yea 18months and $9563.50 may get you through the program, but even when I went to school not everyone who completed the program obtained a license, and not all of those were able to cut it as a mechanic. Without experience the License is a license to learn. So with enrollment way down and people leaving the industry at an ever increasing rate, a rate that will accellerate as the economy recovers and opportunities are created outside this industry (and at other carriers that offer better pay, benefits and working condistion) pay rates will eventually rise for mechanics even at AA, I cant say the same for Fleet Service. I'm not trying to be elitist, just realistic. AA's rates for mechanics are way below industry average, they will not be able to retain new workers with the worst deal in the industry, they will even lose considerable amounts of their more senior workforce, so eventually they will have to raise wages, but AA pays the going rate for the airline industry for fleet service, and still much higher than service companies in the same locations. A shortage of Fleet Service clerks can be rectified in a very short time period, not really the case with mechanics, pretty much 80% of the work age population has the necissary requirements to become a FSC, fewer than 1% have an A&P. There are more lawyers, Doctors and Pilots than A&Ps. Very few A&Ps remain unemployed and the schools that do train A&Ps boast of an extremely high placement rate, with many of them finding better employment outside of Aviation.
So while a future at AA may be pretty grim, as far as the next few years at any rate, its probably still brighter than a future as a FSC at any airline, except SWA. If you plan to stay in this industry, that $9563.50 and 18 months may be worth it.

I totally agree. I stated the same thing (in reference to future A&P demand) on at least two post. One on this thread, I also know without question an A&P can open doors in other fields. The fact that the railroads have been targeting our mechanics is proof of that (they need people trained in diesel technology). I also believe this contributes to AA trying to lower the requirements of some of their positions. They KNOW a shortage is coming and they are trying to minimize the impact. Unfortunately this is having a detrimental impact to licensed mechanics at this time.

With the pension out of the picture why are we seeing so little voluntary movement within the company with so many dissatisfied workers?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

It's funny how when someone offers their opinion they are attacked by those who do not agree.

You attacked me when you made the comment about me seeking retraining. Like I was a parasite gaming the system who had a right to pay taxes but not to participate in a tax funded program that people I litterly worked five feet from were participating in. You also eluded I was taking money out of your pocket just by being employed by AA.

I realize someone has to be the lowest paid in the industry but I assure you if it was AA fleet service that was always the lowest and AMTs some of the highest then you would have a big problem with that.

No. I would aspire to be a mechanic. If that option was not available to me I would simply seek employment elsewhere.I would also take into consideration I have not made the investment the mechanics have and that we do a different type of work. What I would not do is blame them for my pay situation.

That being said, if you can't understand my concern without the insults then have at it. But I have no beef with any FS or Stores. My beef is with the TWU who keeps me the lowest paid AMT in the airline industry.

I was not insulting you. That was an analytical observation of your statements and me trying to make sense of it. You and I have very different thought processes or a severe communication problem. You say you have no problems with Fleet or Stores but your comments on this thread say otherwise.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I agree with OldGuy on this. The problem isn't with the FSCs themselves, who could blame anybody for getting as much as they can. The problem comes when the company agrees to an amount it will give the TWU during negotiations. That is when the TWU starts the wealth redistribution process. Now the last few times at negotiations, it was to save some already doomed for RIF - ovhl people to keep their jobs a little longer at the expense of better pay and benefits for the Mech and related - but mostly line AMTs. As usual, the TWU maintained as many dues payers jobs as possible.for the greater good of the international - to hell with the people still on the clock. We are tired of the forced TWU charitable contribution that we can't write off.

AMFA can not take over soon enough. Looking forward to seeing them on the ballot after the merger.

I understand where your coming from. Your saying TWU is manipulating the pay and benefits of its membership to maximize UNION dues. I came to the same conclusion myself long ago. I don't see how that situation warranted the original comment by OldGuy@AA about me seeking retraining post AA.

I hear a lot about AMFA. I don't see how AMFA is any better than TWU. The problem with AMFA is their pay is not tied to yours since they are a multi carrier union. It would just be more of the same. In time AMFA would just be a pay and benefits manipulator and political machine just like TWU (IF it is not already).

I think AMP is a much better solution. A UNION consisting of AA employees only. I support AMP and I have signed a card. I have also asked other fleet at TULE to sign with no success.

Would you consider AMP to be a viable option?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

You attacked me when you made the comment about me seeking retraining. Like I was a parasite gaming the system who had a right to pay taxes but not to participate in a tax funded program that people I litterly worked five feet from were participating in. You also eluded I was taking money out of your pocket just by being employed by AA


I was not insulting you. That was an analytical observation of your statements and me trying to make sense of it. You and I have very different thought processes or a severe communication problem. You say you have no problems with Fleet or Stores but your comments on this thread say otherwise.

You compared me to someone with an I.Q. of 75. I consider that an insult. I stated several times that I had no problem with fleet and stores that my beef was with the TWU. I have stated that offering benefits to fleet and stores that are not offered to AMTs is wrong but nobody from fleet or stores seems to have a problem with it. You seem to have a problem with a benefit to AMTs that apparently is not offered to fleet. Either you are union or you are not. Remember the shirt you got from local 514 that said "An injustice to one is and injustice to all"? But obviously we are not going to agree. You are still entitled to your own opinion. But too bad you are not Sam Cirri because you could have gotten a title2 spot like he did.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

You compared me to someone with an I.Q. of 75. I consider that an insult. I stated several times that I had no problem with fleet and stores that my beef was with the TWU. I have stated that offering benefits to fleet and stores that are not offered to AMTs is wrong but nobody from fleet or stores seems to have a problem with it. You seem to have a problem with a benefit to AMTs that apparently is not offered to fleet. Either you are union or you are not. Remember the shirt you got from local 514 that said "An injustice to one is and injustice to all"? But obviously we are not going to agree. You are still entitled to your own opinion. But too bad you are not Sam Cirri because you could have gotten a title2 spot like he did.

Maybe the 75 IQ comment was a bit over the top. Even if Fleet and Stores were outraged over your benefit deficiencies what could they do about it? The problem I have is I invested in that program as well through tax dollars. AA saw fit to let everyone else take part in it, even the temporaries and contract labor. For some reason Fleet Service was left out. It is not just mechanics getting the benefit. It is everyone BUT Fleet Service.

I am a TWU member. I have never been in a UNION in my whole life, just a form of control calling itself a UNION. The only shirt I ever got from the TWU was against a Right To Work proposition. That was awfully big of them to spend my UNION dues on a shirt advertising their political agenda especially considering the airline is immune through the Railway Labor Act. By the way, that is the only shirt the UNION made sure we got. They hand delivered it right to the shop.

I do agree with you offering other work groups worker benefits superior to mechanics is wrong.

As far as Sam getting title II, after it was announced they were closing the shop there was a mad dash to put in transfers to other title groups. Sam has a huge amount of time with the company. I am not surprised he got a position. A lot of people were trying for transfers. Do you believe he cut an "under the table" deal for the position? That would draw a hell of a lot of attention from other Fleet seeking those positions. Since I have not heard any outrage from TULE clerks I have to assume he got it on the up and up. If he did not it will come out I am sure.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I am not saying it's fair that you have not been offered this job training like everyone else. If you got that impression then it was never intended. I was pointing out other things that aren't fair but seem to be ok with our international. One thing is certain though. The union that we both pay dues to is not earning those dues. The biggest problem is that there are those in my own title group that seem to be happy with being treated like second class citizens inside their own union. I am not and if I was in favor of anyone else being treated that way it would make me a hypocrite. I wish you no ill will at all. You are as frustrated as I am I'm sure.

 

[Vortilon]

I understand where your coming from. Your saying TWU is manipulating the pay and benefits of its membership to maximize UNION dues. I came to the same conclusion myself long ago. I don't see how that situation warranted the original comment by OldGuy@AA about me seeking retraining post AA.

I hear a lot about AMFA. I don't see how AMFA is any better than TWU. The problem with AMFA is their pay is not tied to yours since they are a multi carrier union. It would just be more of the same. In time AMFA would just be a pay and benefits manipulator and political machine just like TWU (IF it is not already).

I think AMP is a much better solution. A UNION consisting of AA employees only. I support AMP and I have signed a card. I have also asked other fleet at TULE to sign with no success.

Would you consider AMP to be a viable option?

Multi career union? Don't you think your negotiators would do a better job if they had to work under the: pay, benefits, and work rules they negotiated? The TWU International parasites don't have to worry about that. On the other hand, AMFA negotiators do. Plus the AMFA doesn't have all these politically correct social agendas going on - non related to the dues payers. All dues go for the betterment of representing the mechanics and related. On top of that, observers are allowed at negotiations - imagine that - no more BS rumors.

AMP would be fine as well; however, AMFA is already established. Add to that, the last AMFA card drive was actually a success - were it not for some underhanded tactics on the part of the TWU, AA, and the NMB to dilute the "and related" ranks with ineligible voters.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Multi career union? Don't you think your negotiators would do a better job if they had to work under the: pay, benefits, and work rules they negotiated? The TWU International parasites don't have to worry about that. On the other hand, AMFA negotiators do. Plus the AMFA doesn't have all these politically correct social agendas going on - non related to the dues payers. All dues go for the betterment of representing the mechanics and related. On top of that, observers are allowed at negotiations - imagine that - no more BS rumors.

AMP would be fine as well; however, AMFA is already established. Add to that, the last AMFA card drive was actually a success - were it not for some underhanded tactics on the part of the TWU, AA, and the NMB to dilute the "and related" ranks with ineligible voters.

You are right on point. These are the points I have tried to make with the teamsters lovers I know and it falls on deaf ears. They talk about all the money the teamsters have and I point out how much money local 514 has that does us no good.

 

[Bob Owens]

With the pension out of the picture why are we seeing so little voluntary movement within the company with so many dissatisfied workers?

Little? Well I actually see unprecedented movement. I believe that the number of people voluntarily leaving the company is at record levels if you break it down demographically. Typically voluntary movement is confined to young workers with not many years with a company, not older workers with many years. Absolute numbers can be misleading because we have such an old workforce, but even at that we probably lost close to 2000 workers since AA filed BK. I don't think the paltry $40k provided all that much of an incentive as hundreds had left prior to the EO. Basically people who were leaving waited around a little longer than they would have otherwise. We are in the middle of a RIF yet we still have people quitting. What makes the number seem low is you are looking at it as a typical company where the average worker is in their late 30s or early 40s, at AA the average age is well over 50. So if we had 10 guys quit last month with between 15 and 20 years and historically we would on see two or three a year from this category quit than that is a huge increase in the rate of voluntary movement. Thats what we are seeing, and we are seeing this at a time of high unemployment. Lets face it, at over 50 most will ride it out, they are going to be reluctant to move at least until they can get a pension. Once they get to 55 I think more and more will retire and possibly go to a competitor of AA, younger ones will likely continue to leave. The turnover of new hires will be the test, and I think it will be a levels AA never saw before. Turnover for mechanics is very costly for the company due to all the training required and the fact that it takes several years to become proficient, AA will be the training grounds for other carriers. AA is going to be faced will having trouble replacing mechanics, from what I hear they already are with vacancies all over the system that went unfilled. Another issue is as those who remain realize that OT will not substantially improve their lives, already we are seeing fewer people volunteering for Field Trips and OT, by removing this extra labor the shortage will get even more critical. In the past the company could route aircraft to NY and force mechanics to work OT if there weren't enough volunteers in other stations, (when I first hired on they forced every day) but with the new rules in place, and Wallen gone they no longer have that option, sure they can outsource it, but to who?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I heard mechanics had enough cards signed to push AMFA through and then the company started counting Fleet and Fuelers as "related". Maybe I do not understand AMFA as well as I thought I did. I thought AMFA was a multi carrier mechanic UNION. If that is so, how do you come to the conclusion that their pay is representative of yours? Different airlines have different pay scales and benefit packages. Maybe I am missing some information. Can you clarify?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Little? Well I actually see unprecedented movement. I believe that the number of people voluntarily leaving the company is at record levels if you break it down demographically. Typically voluntary movement is confined to young workers with not many years with a company, not older workers with many years. Absolute numbers can be misleading because we have such an old workforce, but even at that we probably lost close to 2000 workers since AA filed BK. I don't think the paltry $40k provided all that much of an incentive as hundreds had left prior to the EO. Basically people who were leaving waited around a little longer than they would have otherwise. We are in the middle of a RIF yet we still have people quitting. What makes the number seem low is you are looking at it as a typical company where the average worker is in their late 30s or early 40s, at AA the average age is well over 50. So if we had 10 guys quit last month with between 15 and 20 years and historically we would on see two or three a year from this category quit than that is a huge increase in the rate of voluntary movement. Thats what we are seeing, and we are seeing this at a time of high unemployment. Lets face it, at over 50 most will ride it out, they are going to be reluctant to move at least until they can get a pension. Once they get to 55 I think more and more will retire and possibly go to a competitor of AA, younger ones will likely continue to leave. The turnover of new hires will be the test, and I think it will be a levels AA never saw before. Turnover for mechanics is very costly for the company due to all the training required and the fact that it takes several years to become proficient, AA will be the training grounds for other carriers. AA is going to be faced will having trouble replacing mechanics, from what I hear they already are with vacancies all over the system that went unfilled. Another issue is as those who remain realize that OT will not substantially improve their lives, already we are seeing fewer people volunteering for Field Trips and OT, by removing this extra labor the shortage will get even more critical. In the past the company could route aircraft to NY and force mechanics to work OT if there weren't enough volunteers in other stations, (when I first hired on they forced every day) but with the new rules in place, and Wallen gone they no longer have that option, sure they can outsource it, but to who?

I am not surprised by those numbers. I don't think they tell the real story though. I believe those numbers are representative of the company closing stations and people refusing to move that were eligible for retirement or people not eligible for retirement that did not want to chase the job. Eligible retirees who's stations remained open but were just waiting for a retirement package (they were going to retire anyway) also contribute to those numbers. The fact they put retirement off and then left en masse skewed the numbers. If you broke those numbers down by stations that were staying open I am sure the numbers would tell a vastly different story.

Anyway those are not the people I was referring to. I do not see any proof of long term employees (say 15 years) who's stations have remained open and are not getting riffed leaving the company. They are unhappy with pay and benefits but, instead of seeking employment elsewhere, they stay. I am simply asking why they make that choice. I could understand it if pension was still a factor but it is not.

As far as I know one of the main problems with American Airlines hiring new mechanics is the step raise system we use. That is one UNION article that has backfired big time for recruiting purposes. AA does not (or rather can not) recognize experience and start all mechanics at step 1 in pay. Most mechanics with several years experience do not want to start at mechanic step one pay and they should not have to.

 

[Bob Owens]

I am not surprised by those numbers. I don't think they tell the real story though. I believe those numbers are representative of the company closing stations and people refusing to move that were eligible for retirement or people not eligible for retirement that did not want to chase the job. Eligible retirees who's stations remained open but were just waiting for a retirement package (they were going to retire anyway) also contribute to those numbers. The fact they put retirement off and then left en masse skewed the numbers. If you broke those numbers down by stations that were staying open I am sure the numbers would tell a vastly different story.

Anyway those are not the people I was referring to. I do not see any proof of long term employees (say 15 years) who's stations have remained open and are not getting riffed leaving the company. They are unhappy with pay and benefits but, instead of seeking employment elsewhere, they stay. I am simply asking why they make that choice. I could understand it if pension was still a factor but it is not.

As far as I know one of the main problems with American Airlines hiring new mechanics is the step raise system we use. That is one UNION article that has backfired big time for recruiting purposes. AA does not (or rather can not) recognize experience and start all mechanics at step 1 in pay. Most mechanics with several years experience do not want to start at mechanic step one pay and they should not have to.

Maybe you dont see it in Tulsa , but its happening on the line. While 10 guys may not seem like a lot, when you compare that to historical trends its a huge increase. Prior to this it was very rare for a 15 to 20 year guys to quit, pretty much unheard of. Some guys CS away most of their time while working their new job and are waiting to be released, but they are leaving. Others are watching and putting in applications at other carriers and other employers, seems that AA is the largest supplier of Aircraft Mechanics for other carriers at many of the high cost stations. make no mistake guys are looking to leave and have written off a future at AA. Its going to get much worse as other carrriers and industries step up their hiring. UA may still be burning through their RIF list but when you consider all the mergers over the years its suprising that anybody is hiring off the street yet guys have quit AA recently and been hired by UPS , FED Ex and WN. Its also telling that many took the street rather than bump the system when you consider that AA picks up $12000 of the cost to move.

While the company closed several stations for fleet, some of them retained Aircraft maintenance, such as PHL and RDU, in fact both of those stations are said to be short and looking to hire. Thats something I've never seen before, I never saw them keep Aircraft Maintenence in a station where they removed title III.



AA had a very stingy EO because they really didnt want to lose the heads, they wanted just enough YES votes and they didnt want to encourage young guys to leave AA and go to competitors. If they had offered $75K, a years pay, there would have been a much bigger exodus. I think they were shocked by how many refused to move.


Our contract allows the company to hire mechanics at any step along the scale, its called "Flexible starting rates" and they normally hire guys at step 3 in NY. They couldnt get anyone at the lower rates, with Step 3 they had been able to get guys from Eagle, because they carry company seniority, but that well has been tapped dry. However with our industry low vacation allotment and worst Holiday package of any industry that I know of ,company seniority wont keep them here, it will give them the opportunity to get Heavy Turbine experience and move on to other carriers though.If they leave AA after five years they would end up starting with the same amount of Vacation and a lot more Holiday pay than AA is offering.

 

[Vortilon]

I heard mechanics had enough cards signed to push AMFA through and then the company started counting Fleet and Fuelers as "related". Maybe I do not understand AMFA as well as I thought I did. I thought AMFA was a multi carrier mechanic UNION. If that is so, how do you come to the conclusion that their pay is representative of yours? Different airlines have different pay scales and benefit packages. Maybe I am missing some information. Can you clarify?

The determination of who is eligible to vote in the mechanics and related category is made by the NMB, based on some pretty loosely defined criteria. The NMB asks the company to provide lists of employees from around the system that performed some of these loosely defined tasks - cleaning aircraft etc. - although performed by title 3 employees - many title 3 people were submitted by the company at the TWUs request and accepted by the NMB as an eligible M&R voter. We all know that is BS. The plan was to dilute the voting ranks. In addition, company and TWU attempted to add retirees, dead people, management, and miscellaneous other work groups not in maintenance as eligible voters. The NMB was very receptive. Although many of these ineligible voters were tossed out, The NMB still agreed to enough, that the card drive came up short by less than 50 cards. The level of corruption and deceit by the TWU, AA, and the NMB in making those determinations of eligible voters was second to none.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Maybe you dont see it in Tulsa , but its happening on the line.

I will have to take your word for it. It most definitely in not happening in Tulsa.

UA may still be burning through their RIF list but when you consider all the mergers over the years its suprising that anybody is hiring off the street yet guys have quit AA recently and been hired by UPS ,

Analyst are predicting a huge shortage of A&P licensed and experienced mechanics. They are probably trying to beat the hiring rush.

Our contract allows the company to hire mechanics at any step along the scale, its called "Flexible starting rates" and they normally hire guys at step 3 in NY.

That is why I said as far as I know. I did not want to paint myself into a corner making absolute statements. I can honestly say I have never heard of "Flexible starting rates" used in TULE (though most people don't discuss such matters). That may have something to do with the fact we have at least two A&P schools here (TTC and Spartan) with graduates every year. It may also have to do with the fact that Oklahoma is a low cost of living state. Thank you for informing me of the "Flexible starting rates".