StonewAAlled

[OldGuy@AA]

I don't blame fleet service at all. I blame the TWU. I also blame the AMTs in Tulsa who will not sign an AMFA card so we can be rid of the TWU.

 

[Zom JFK]

[sub]Yep after "Uncle Bobby" told the mechanics at AA that he couldn't pay them more because he had to pay the unskilled so much many mechanics have been running with that ball ever since. As if that bastard would have given them anything. I always laughed when people called him Uncle Bobby. They reminded me of battered wives. Crandall pioneered destroying jobs at the airport. ALL the jobs. Not just aircraft mechanics. Come on. When a pilot makes about the same as a NYC police officer, what do you think they are going to pay a Mechanic? It's over for airline jobs.[/sub]

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

American Airlines or any other airline will not hire an A&P with no experience. You get that either in the military or at some small airport working for minimum wage.

I worked in the largest concentration of A&P's in the whole company. I can tell you for a fact your dead wrong. They do not hire them off the street but, they do bring them in from other shops with no experience, and there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to have a starting point.

You are stretching it when you try to say that covering seats and laying carpet in a 777 is performing "maintenance" on an aircraft.

5092 proclaims these items to be maintenance.

And back in the day when fleet far out numbered AMTs it didn't matter how much more the other airlines paid their AMTs. Fleet demanded the same raises even though they were the highest paid in the industry.

You mean people wanted raises? Interesting.

This made it impossible for us to keep up with what the other airlines were paying and they got way ahead of us. In 2001 AA had no choice but to raise our pay but TWU made sure the AMTs paid much more in give backs than either fleet or stores.

Fleet does not control your pay and benefits. American Airlines does, and TWU negotiates it. If you are unhappy with what was negotiated...... then fire your negotiator.

But the fleet service and stores at AA have never cared about how their pay compared to the rest of the industry. They just saw what an AMT was making and wanted that. Now you have more benefits than AMTs.

I do not know of one Fleet Service Clerk that EVER expected to make AMT pay. Perhaps you should examine the situation and the anger that it generates in yourself. You think perhaps your being manipulated (divide and conquer)? Your trying to make Fleet responsible for AA/TWU behavior and on a personal note your directly attacking me.

I'm sorry but I never heard nor saw on this board any fleet or stores outraged at the fact that AMTs had inferior benefits than them and the TWU refusing to get them for us.

I have never seen a mechanic outraged by Flight Attendant or Pilot loss of benefits and pay. At any rate I have said on this board before that it is ridiculous to pay A&P's less than a car mechanic when they are working on multi million dollar aircraft. However, it is not Fleet or Stores job to fight for your pay and benefits. That is your UNIONS job.

Your idea of unionism seems to be slanted.

Thats pretty laughable considering your whole post was based on "It is Fleet Service and Stores fault I do not make more money". Perhaps you should look up the word UNIONISM. It is supposed to be workers banding together for better pay and benefits, not attacking other work groups. UNIONISM is not five contracts under one UNION banner (Mechanics, Stores, Fleet Service, Maintenance, and Simulator Technician) being played off one another.

But as Forrest Gump said, that's all I got to say about that.

Funny, the most intelligent thing you have said so far come from a character with an IQ of 75.

At any rate, what does this have to do with the original post?

 

[Zom JFK]

[sub]deleted[/sub]

 

[OldGuy@AA]

So now we're going to compare IQs? This is laughable. You seem to have missed the entire point but since you are so much smarter than me let me try to rephrase it........ AMT = skilled labor Fleet service/ Stores = unskilled labor. American Airlines fleet service and stores are some of the highest paid in the industry. American Airlines AMTs are the lowest paid in the industry. We all know how the TWU "negotiates" contracts. They take the money offered and split it up. When two groups are already in the top pay range for the industry and one is the lowest you realize that the money that should be going to you is going to someone else. Simple logic. But then again I am not as smart as you. But you are not qualified do my job are you?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I guess the big question is that in order to put all title groups in the middle of the industry as far as pay goes then AMTs would have gotten a raise and fleet and stores would have taken pay cuts. (TWU admitted this) Would that have been ok with you? ...............Yeah. I thought so.

 

[AANOTOK]

I guess the big question is that in order to put all title groups in the middle of the industry as far as pay goes then AMTs would have gotten a raise and fleet and stores would have taken pay cuts. (TWU admitted this) Would that have been ok with you? ...............Yeah. I thought so.

OldGuy, if it will make you feel better, us unskilled labor (Fleet) voted for a 2.5 % paycut plus a cut in longevity pay. Because of the infamous "me too" clause, the paycut did not go into affect.
I don't care what you or anyone else makes or what benefits they receive. All I know is my workgroup has gone without a pay raise just as along as any other workgroup and it is painful for all.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

So now we're going to compare IQs? This is laughable.

Oh its laughable alright.

You seem to have missed the entire point but since you are so much smarter than me let me try to rephrase it........ AMT = skilled labor Fleet service/ Stores = unskilled labor.

I got the point just fine. I understand the concept of skilled and unskilled. Apparently you did not get the point that Fleet Service has nothing to do with a ) what AA offered you for pay and benefits and b ) what your UNION negotiated for you.

American Airlines fleet service and stores are some of the highest paid in the industry. American Airlines AMTs are the lowest paid in the industry.

I can find Fleet and Stores at other airlines that make more than their AA counterparts. I can also find AMT's that make a lower wage than their AA counterparts. If your unhappy with your pay and benefits perhaps you could apply for an AMT position at a competitor.

We all know how the TWU "negotiates" contracts. They take the money offered and split it up.

Wow. They take the money offered and split it up. Ingenious.

When two groups are already in the top pay range for the industry and one is the lowest you realize that the money that should be going to you is going to someone else.

I suppose you feel entitled to dictate what other people should make and tell AA how to spend their money? They have a name for that. Communism.

Simple logic.

Your logic is anything but simple. It is a combination of delusion and fantasy.

But then again I am not as smart as you.

That is the second time you have said you are not as smart as me in one posting. I never made claim I was any smarter than you. I just think your comments have no basis in reality. They are the ramblings of paranoia and jealousy. Like Fleet is after you, taking what is so rightfully yours. I think you need to open your eyes to the fact that AA/TWU have been working together to manipulate the workforce for years and your seeing the consequences of that.

But you are not qualified do my job are you?

No I am not. However, I have no doubt I could be after an 18 month course and $9563.50. However, after seeing the state of the airline industry I can not say that seems like an attractive option.

There are not a lot of young people seeking to enter the AMT craft. Rampant outsourcing has done considerable damage to the profession (domestic and foreign). Most young people today are not interested in doing anything where they might have to get their clothes dirty. According to future job growth analyst there will be a critical shortage of A&P licensed mechanics in the very near future. Hopefully very soon you can command a very high wage. That is if Fleet and Stores do not steal it first.........

Just out of curiosity I am interested to know what you think you should make and what you think Fleet Service should make.

 

[Bob Owens]

I worked in the largest concentration of A&P's in the whole company. I can tell you for a fact your dead wrong. They do not hire them off the street but, they do bring them in from other shops with no experience, and there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to have a starting point.

Well, for guys like me, and probably Oldguy as well, our journey started with A&P school, then working fly by night carriers or going into the military for five or more years because the majors were not interested unless you had five years of heavy turbine experience, so for most of us we were looking at a seven year investment in being a mechanic when we started at AA. So maybe you can understand a little resentment when others get in without all that. Of course now that the pension is gone its not as good of a deal as it once was.

Of course they can no longer be so selective, so now they will take people with no experience, but they created the shortage and we are letting them out of the mess they created.

 

[Bob Owens]

OldGuy, if it will make you feel better, us unskilled labor (Fleet) voted for a 2.5 % paycut plus a cut in longevity pay. Because of the infamous "me too" clause, the paycut did not go into affect.
I don't care what you or anyone else makes or what benefits they receive. All I know is my workgroup has gone without a pay raise just as along as any other workgroup and it is painful for all.

Well actually you guys came out of 2003 much much worse than when you went into 2001. You lost everything you got in 2001 and then some. Mechanics had seen a much bigger increase than Fleet or Stores in 2001 as a result of the mechanics at NWA getting somewhere like at 35% increase in pay, we followed them so when we lost 25%, our pay was still a little more than it was prior to 2001. The other things, Vacation, Holidays, sick etc is what set us way back, but you guys lost most of that as well.

I do not blame Fleet for our predicament, ultimately, mechanics who voted YES are the ones to blame. The "leaders" who led them to believe that they should vote yes also share in the blame.

 

[TWU informer]

Well actually you guys came out of 2003 much much worse than when you went into 2001. You lost everything you got in 2001 and then some. Mechanics had seen a much bigger increase than Fleet or Stores in 2001 as a result of the mechanics at NWA getting somewhere like at 35% increase in pay, we followed them so when we lost 25%, our pay was still a little more than it was prior to 2001. The other things, Vacation, Holidays, sick etc is what set us way back, but you guys lost most of that as well.

I do not blame Fleet for our predicament, ultimately, mechanics who voted YES are the ones to blame. The "leaders" who led them to believe that they should vote yes also share in the blame.

Along with those that still believe change from within is possible as long as "they" remain an elected Local Officer.

 

[Bob Owens]

No I am not. However, I have no doubt I could be after an 18 month course and $9563.50. However, after seeing the state of the airline industry I can not say that seems like an attractive option.

And remaining an FSC is?

Eventually, even with AA lowering the barriers to entry there will be a serious shortage of mechanics. Yea 18months and $9563.50 may get you through the program, but even when I went to school not everyone who completed the program obtained a license, and not all of those were able to cut it as a mechanic. Without experience the License is a license to learn. So with enrollment way down and people leaving the industry at an ever increasing rate, a rate that will accellerate as the economy recovers and opportunities are created outside this industry (and at other carriers that offer better pay, benefits and working condistion) pay rates will eventually rise for mechanics even at AA, I cant say the same for Fleet Service. I'm not trying to be elitist, just realistic. AA's rates for mechanics are way below industry average, they will not be able to retain new workers with the worst deal in the industry, they will even lose considerable amounts of their more senior workforce, so eventually they will have to raise wages, but AA pays the going rate for the airline industry for fleet service, and still much higher than service companies in the same locations. A shortage of Fleet Service clerks can be rectified in a very short time period, not really the case with mechanics, pretty much 80% of the work age population has the necissary requirements to become a FSC, fewer than 1% have an A&P. There are more lawyers, Doctors and Pilots than A&Ps. Very few A&Ps remain unemployed and the schools that do train A&Ps boast of an extremely high placement rate, with many of them finding better employment outside of Aviation.

So while a future at AA may be pretty grim, as far as the next few years at any rate, its probably still brighter than a future as a FSC at any airline, except SWA. If you plan to stay in this industry, that $9563.50 and 18 months may be worth it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Along with those that still believe change from within is possible as long as "they" remain an elected Local Officer.

Anything is possible, and I dont think that the posiblities revolve around me. I voted NO, Its possible that we could get AMFA and Tulsa would still vote YES every time the company says "BOO".

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Just out of curiosity I am interested to know what you think you should make and what you think Fleet Service should make.

It's funny how when someone offers their opinion they are attacked by those who do not agree. But I will say that if the company and union are telling us they are looking to put us at the middle of the industry (they did) then that is where the wages should have been on the TA. If you were the lowest paid FS in the industry I would NOT expect the same raise as you. I would fully expect (and hope) your union would get that for you. What we have now is that everyone gets the same raise no matter who is further behind the rest of their peers in the industry. That is communism. Getting everyone the pay their peers have in the industry is UNIONISM. I realize someone has to be the lowest paid in the industry but I assure you if it was AA fleet service that was always the lowest and AMTs some of the highest then you would have a big problem with that. That being said, if you can't understand my concern without the insults then have at it. You further prove why AMTs need their own union. But I have no beef with any FS or Stores. My beef is with the TWU who keeps me the lowest paid AMT in the airline industry.

 

[Vortilon]

I agree with OldGuy on this. The problem isn't with the FSCs themselves, who could blame anybody for getting as much as they can. The problem comes when the company agrees to an amount it will give the TWU during negotiations. That is when the TWU starts the wealth redistribution process. Now the last few times at negotiations, it was to save some already doomed for RIF - ovhl people to keep their jobs a little longer at the expense of better pay and benefits for the Mech and related - but mostly line AMTs. As usual, the TWU maintained as many dues payers jobs as possible.for the greater good of the international - to hell with the people still on the clock. We are tired of the forced TWU charitable contribution that we can't write off.

AMFA can not take over soon enough. Looking forward to seeing them on the ballot after the merger.