Southwest giving perks to business travelers

[WNrforlife]

Whether we like it or not, BK is something MANY companies have used to shed costs. The government is probably hesitant to change it for fear of causing the loss of thousands of jobs. Plus, I'm not sure the "playing field" would be level anyway. Eastern, Braniff, PanAm-they all went away, yet we still seem to have "overcapacity". If CO had "died" during their first BK, it wouldn't have changed this industry. New airlines are always waiting in the wings. They spring up with lower fares, lower costs, and a low-paid workforce. You should be glad the big airlines haven't gone out of business. If CO, US, DL, UA and NW had all gone out of business, new entrants would spring up in their place. These new entrants would ALL have lower costs than WN. I'm sure that wouldn't make it easy for WN.

OTOH, WN should be commended for their success. People always like to say, "wait until their fuel hedges go away" or "wait until their contracts are up for renewal". The fact of the matter is, WN is a very successful business. I've only flown them once, PHX-DAL via ABQ, but they do it right. I definitely think they are a "real" airline. I just prefer to fly a legacy if it's a longer flight. I wouldn't hesitate to fly WN if I lived closer to MDW-but I live closer to O'Hare. If I HAVE to buy a ticket, I normally can find a decent fare on a legacy, without the 45 minute drive to MDW.

That's alright. We don't need your business anyway.

 

[skyguy25]

so even if WN would go into bankruptcy, they would still be around another 35 years- just like CO, US, UA, DL, NW...maybe WN should have filed just for the hell if it with all the rest- and see how level the playing field became All you WN haters out there, know that WN could, and would, survive a reorganization if it ever came to that. America is stuck with WN for a long, long time...

 

[CynicalResAgent]

WN would never have to file for BK. They have the acumen to know how to recognize how to right the ship before the problem becomes that serious. They are proactive and they think several steps ahead and will always be ahead of others. While cariers like US, NK, UA and others are thinking about next quarter WN is already thinking about what they are going to be doing next quarter, next year, the next 2 years, the next 5 years, and so on. I believe that no matter what that they are very able to think of innovative ways to remain profitable.

 

[magsau]

WN would never have to file for BK.

This statement is going to be held a reminder in say '09 when the hedges expire. The SWA model does not work at oil prices above their current hedge level. Once that happens the company will have to take drastic measures to stave off a collapse. You can guess on which way I think this will go.

 

[CynicalResAgent]

This statement is going to be held a reminder in say '09 when the hedges expire. The SWA model does not work at oil prices above their current hedge level. Once that happens the company will have to take drastic measures to stave off a collapse. You can guess on which way I think this will go.

When have they been in the red? How many consecutive profitable quarters while everyone else psoted losses? If they see an end to the profits do you think that they'd be working to avoid that?

 

[KCFlyer]

When have they been in the red? How many consecutive profitable quarters while everyone else psoted losses? If they see an end to the profits do you think that they'd be working to avoid that?

It doesn't matter. If Southwest ever files bankruptcy, you can expect mags to be the first in line to complain about them "lowering the bar" for the other airline wages. UAL should have been shut down after one year in bankruptcy. The slack would have been filled by the other airlines that prior to that didn't need to file bankruptcy. Funny how he blames SWA for all that, yet Delta and Northwest's trips to bankruptcy court can be laid squarely on UAL's 3 year stay there.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

so even if WN would go into bankruptcy, they would still be around another 35 years- just like CO, US, UA, DL, NW...maybe WN should have filed just for the hell if it with all the rest- and see how level the playing field became All you WN haters out there, know that WN could, and would, survive a reorganization if it ever came to that. America is stuck with WN for a long, long time...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forgive me..."sky"..I'm a bit confused.
What is Bankruptcy anyway ????????????

 

[magsau]

It doesn't matter. If Southwest ever files bankruptcy, you can expect mags to be the first in line to complain about them "lowering the bar" for the other airline wages.

Nope KC you are wrong. While I will dance a jig when the hedges run out and SWA starts down the slippery slope of financial disaster. I complained about SWA lowering the bar a long time ago when they started service. They undercut us for years and the troubles of the real airlines can be blamed on the limbo artist from SWA dancing down our benefits.

If SWA had come into the industry and or later started a defined benefit I think WE would all be better off. But unfortunately they did not. Now when the house of cards collapses the result will be very much enjoyed.

Take a look at statements made by Kelly last year that acknowledged the fact that without the hedges SWA would have lost money. Without generating great new revenue streams SWA is filled with a business model that does not work with market gas prices. Those are facts and they are undisputed.

If you wish to talk about UA's BK then please start a thread about it on the UA board and we can discuss it there. Otherwise the FACTS about the UA BK are being terribly skewed by you and your lack of knowledge or desire to act ignorant. If you wish to provide a time line you will find some significant omissions in your spin.

 

[magsau]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forgive me..."sky"..I'm a bit confused.
What is Bankruptcy anyway ????????????

I believe this is what you are looking for:

AA Bankruptcy

If not for the revote by the FA's and seeing the BK of UA, AA was able to come within a whisker of filing. In fact I was in an internet cafe in Europe reading the news on the day and it proclaimed a BK filing was imminent when the F/A's said NO.

 

[KCFlyer]

If you wish to talk about UA's BK then please start a thread about it on the UA board and we can discuss it there. Otherwise the FACTS about the UA BK are being terribly skewed by you and your lack of knowledge or desire to act ignorant. If you wish to provide a time line you will find some significant omissions in your spin.

Fact - UAL spent 3 years in bankruptcy court...all the while offering fares that drug down Delta and Northwest. I don't care how many "try agains" they got from the court. The court should have taken a wider view of the damage they were causing the rest of the industry with these "do overs'.

 

[CynicalResAgent]

Nope KC you are wrong. While I will dance a jig when the hedges run out and SWA starts down the slippery slope of financial disaster. I complained about SWA lowering the bar a long time ago when they started service. They undercut us for years and the troubles of the real airlines can be blamed on the limbo artist from SWA dancing down our benefits.

If SWA had come into the industry and or later started a defined benefit I think WE would all be better off. But unfortunately they did not. Now when the house of cards collapses the result will be very much enjoyed.

Take a look at statements made by Kelly last year that acknowledged the fact that without the hedges SWA would have lost money. Without generating great new revenue streams SWA is filled with a business model that does not work with market gas prices. Those are facts and they are undisputed.

I don't mean to get in between your disagreement with KC but I don't understand what you mean by saying that WN lowers the bar. From what I understand they offer some of the highest wages in the industry and some of the best benefits. I have even read an article about some long time flight attendants that are still working because they love the job but they have accrued over a million dollars in stock thru the stock purchase program. Now granted these employees started a long time ago but WN employees love their jobs and have some of the highest job satisfaction rates of any company. So I don't see how you can say they lower the bar, in fact as someone who has worked for 2 airlines and a couple of travel agencies I'd say the opposite is true. I'd say they really set the bar. A lot of companies aspire to be what WN is in corporate culture and in consitancy of earnings. When I go to business development courses or training courses WN is usually one of the companies that gets mentioned as a company that is admired and is wanted to be emulated by other companies.

 

[magsau]

I don't mean to get in between your disagreement with KC but I don't understand what you mean by saying that WN lowers the bar.

WN entered the industry paying well below market rates. They also NEVER had a fixed benefit retirement program that the other carriers offered. The SWA crews used the contracts of the other unionized carriers and always settled for a bit less than what was the going rates. Basically riding the coattails of the other labor groups hard fought wages. It was not until the rest of the carriers had to take pay cuts as a result of 9/11 that SWA became higher paid than the other carriers. Also, the lack of a WN fixed benefit retirement program was used against the rest of the carriers by our managements to chisel down our benefits.

Again, Kelly has said that SWA would have lost money had it not been for fuel hedging. Those that say other wise are trying to convince themselves differently. Their own CEO admits this and is trying like crazy to redefine the business model as he sees the changes coming. The pilots are currently in contract talks and I would not be surprised to see a paycut.

 

[magsau]

Fact - UAL spent 3 years in bankruptcy court...all the while offering fares that drug down Delta and Northwest. I don't care how many "try agains" they got from the court. The court should have taken a wider view of the damage they were causing the rest of the industry with these "do overs'.

Again, if you wish to discuss this why not start a new thread that is ON topic. But just to address this quickly. Can you please present some of those fares that caused damage to NWA and DAL? Why only those two carriers? Why did UAL's fares not affect CAL, AA? Or for that fact WN?

Coming from someone that always says it is the fare that drives him to fly SWA I am really surprised you would be complaining about a "LOW" fare.

Show me the evidence that you are talking about. You are starting to sound a little off. You can make a better argument than the one you are trying to spin.

 

[KCFlyer]

Again, if you wish to discuss this why not start a new thread that is ON topic. But just to address this quickly. Can you please present some of those fares that caused damage to NWA and DAL? Why only those two carriers? Why did UAL's fares not affect CAL, AA? Or for that fact WN?

Okay...it did impact AA and CAL ...and WN, Airtran and Jetblue as well. Can't go back to UAL's glory days in bankruptcy court, but ANY search with flexible dates in travelocity during that time ALWAYS returned with a UAL fare as being the lowest.

Coming from someone that always says it is the fare that drives him to fly SWA I am really surprised you would be complaining about a "LOW" fare.

You misread my posts then mags. First comes convenience, then price. As a matter of fact, I have paid MORE to fly on Southwest at times because I could change the itinerary without penalty. I have even booked "business class" on Airtran so that I could have the flexibility I needed. I even paid more to fly American when a United flight was cheaper...even though I had to change planes on either carrier. Two reasons for that...one is that the scheduling was better on AA...the second was that I was a bit concerned about the stability of the pilots on UAL. You're welcome.

 

[magsau]

Okay...it did impact AA and CAL ...and WN, Airtran and Jetblue as well. Can't go back to UAL's glory days in bankruptcy court, but ANY search with flexible dates in travelocity during that time ALWAYS returned with a UAL fare as being the lowest.

I hate to say this but the above is an absolute lie. Please provide the real data as I know I looked for fares during that time for some family and friends and UA was definitely not the cheapest ticket "ALWAYS" as you say. Provide some proof or I will continue to consider this a bold face false statement on your behalf.

One thing with you and I we can almost always spar a topic and you often make really good arguments but on this one you are not hitting the target.