Cows Will Fly

[SharoninSAT]

Don't worry, ac500. Those airplanes only start out that color. They all change to GREEN on the way to the bank!

corl737...great post,it's a classic! ...but I think astrolounge not ac500 was the originator of this nasty little post from another thread

The funny thing is that you are just one of many, many people at the legacy carriers that think the same.....do you believe passengers are thinking, "gee, if UAL just had a better paint scheme I would fly them more".

Get a clue dude, thats why you are being left in the dust....you keep living in the past, the glory years...its over Gomer, step into the future and stop living in the past, LOL.

wnjetdoc...I agree but I think astrolounge not ac5oo is the originator of this nasty little post from another thread

 

[ac500]

Yes, I apologize I was only quoting AstroLounge from another thread. I only hope AstroLounge is a youngster, possiblyon his older sisters computer making comments like that.

 

[markkus757]

I think there is not enough discussion going on as to the main reasons they are going back to DEN. We all can agree that the current lineup of airlines will have to try harder to compete in any market that WN goes into. I think there are several ideas in play. The first would be to assume that DEN got them an incredible deal to come back. We won't ever know how truly good this deal is. I know people have been whining that DEN's costs are higher than DFW. I believe DEN evened the field to get WN there.
The second thing going on is that WN has a lot of planes coming in the next few years. They will probably fight the Wright amendment for another decade before they get it repealed. These planes must go somewhere besides replacing any old 733s that might start showing their age. I also think this was strategic to keep jetBlue from getting a stronghold for their 190s coming online. I believe they went into the last 4 airports based on this fact among others. They have to start being more proactive to grow their airline. They truly are looking at this as an opportunity to make life miserable for all.
Another thing about their hedges, if you were to dig up their costs(haven't got them in hand right now), their CASM minus fuel has gone down, even after the new contracts they have signed recently. Remember this also, they are growing the airline with most of that growth in long haul service. That will drive down the CASM significantly as well.

 

[WNjetdoc]

Try as I might, I have yet to be able to see the paint scheme from inside the aircraft.

Thats what cracks me up, I've read countless times EMPLOYEES from other airlines talking about our paint scheme, I can't recall reading a PASSENGER saying how it has effected their travel.

I kinda feel sorry for those employees when I read their posts about silly things like our paint job, or when they keep posting about our hedges, (which is a concern), or how we are going to take pay cuts, etc, etc, etc....they seem so hurt and desperate and I do feel for them, however its not my fault that I work for the best company in America. I kinda look at it as a positive and want to keep our company on top and will do whatever I need to do to assure that.

Now I gotta get back to watching the Redskins kicking some '9er ARSE!!

corl737...great post,it's a classic! ...but I think astrolounge not ac500 was the originator of this nasty little post from another thread
wnjetdoc...I agree but I think astrolounge not ac5oo is the originator of this nasty little post from another thread

My bad, I will apply my response then to the original poster.

 

[WNJETFIXER]

Thats what cracks me up, I've read countless times EMPLOYEES from other airlines talking about our paint scheme, I can't recall reading a PASSENGER saying how it has effected their travel.

I kinda feel sorry for those employees when I read their posts about silly things like our paint job, or when they keep posting about our hedges, (which is a concern), or how we are going to take pay cuts, etc, etc, etc....they seem so hurt and desperate and I do feel for them, however its not my fault that I work for the best company in America. I kinda look at it as a positive and want to keep our company on top and will do whatever I need to do to assure that.

Now I gotta get back to watching the Redskins kicking some '9er ARSE!!
My bad, I will apply my response then to the original poster.

REDSKINS WIN!!! Hopefully the Chargers can keep their lead!!!!!

 

[hobbes]

Hopefully UA and its TED operation, along with Frontier will defend the market. A beautiful airport like DIA doesn't need a hideous looking visitor like swa (the brown, the blue and especially the flag of Maryland) dumping cattle off............."YOU must Defend This House!"
AstroLounge , How old are you ?

I don't know about you, but those cattle pay my paycheck, so I'll take them if you won't! Then again, maybe that's why we're making money and most other carriers aren't. We're lacking "the snob factor."

Funny how everyone's money works just the same, though.

 

[WNjetdoc]

REDSKINS WIN!!! Hopefully the Chargers can keep their lead!!!!!

Dude, do your co-workers in Motown Philly know about your feelings?? Ha,ha,ha...I'm with you on the Eagles, however they did wind up winning, no thanks to a bad call at the end of the game. The Chargers knee was for sure down, he didn't fumble.

 

[KCFlyer]

Dude, do your co-workers in Motown Philly know about your feelings?? Ha,ha,ha...I'm with you on the Eagles, however they did wind up winning, no thanks to a bad call at the end of the game. The Chargers knee was for sure down, he didn't fumble.

As a KC chiefs fan, I can say...go Philly!!

 

[JS]

I hate football.

DEN should not be a problem for Southwest in terms of taxi time, because there will not be any short-haul flights, unless Southwest is going to start flying from DEN to COS, GUC, DDC, etc. All the Southwest cities (except SLC I guess) are really far away by Southwest standards. This means the total taxi time as a proportion of the entire flight is probably even less than something like a DAL-SAT flight.

Also, DEN rarely has delays, so at least Southwest can schedule the requisite travel time and be virtually assured that the flight will actually arrive on time ... unlike PHL!

 

[WNJETFIXER]

Dude, do your co-workers in Motown Philly know about your feelings?? Ha,ha,ha...I'm with you on the Eagles, however they did wind up winning, no thanks to a bad call at the end of the game. The Chargers knee was for sure down, he didn't fumble.

My co-workers are a bunch of Eagle punks!!!!! :down: I want to go to the game on New Years day in Philly but I value my life. I would'nt be able to keep my mouth shut. GO SKINS
PORTIS 3 TD's, can't beat that!!!!!!!!

 

[mga707]

I hate football.

All the Southwest cities (except SLC I guess) are really far away by Southwest standards.

ABQ is currently the closest WN destination to DEN, not SLC. MCI is also nearly as close to DEN as SLC is.
While ABQ was one of the two nonstop routes served from DEN during the first go-round (83 'til 86), along with PHX, I doubt if it will be this time, given Herb's recent emphasis on longer hauls.

 

[whlinder]

GO SKINS
PORTIS 3 TD's, can't beat that!!!!!!!!

Such a great game to be at yesterday, it was so sweet.

 

[balloonguy]

ABQ is currently the closest WN destination to DEN, not SLC. MCI is also nearly as close to DEN as SLC is.
While ABQ was one of the two nonstop routes served from DEN during the first go-round (83 'til 86), along with PHX, I doubt if it will be this time, given Herb's recent emphasis on longer hauls.

Has it occured to anyone that WN might be going into Denver as a defensive move against Frontier who could be bought or merged into Virgin USA? Those new Arbii would fit right in along with FLYi going Chapter 7 and all of those gates/slots at IAD coming available for Branson.

 

[Globetrotter11]

Boyd on Southwest's entry to Denver


Southwest & Denver:
More Proof of The Maturing of The LCC Model

Head scratching.

After years of literally telling the world it would not come to Denver, Southwest suddenly announces it's doing it. To a lot of folks, it looks like the airline planets are out of alignment. Colorado Springs was supposed to be the heir apparent for Southwest service in the Rocky Mountain region. Denver International was too expensive. Heck, the president of Southwest actually said so, not too long ago.

This is the same airline that less than a month ago was threatening to bolt away from Sea-Tac because of high airport costs. The same airline that has made clear in the past that airport costs were a critical component in serving a city.

Then they announce Denver, which, regardless of the hype, is an expensive airport.

An Airline Under Attack - From More Than One Side. This has a lot more to do with what's going on at Southwest than it does with Denver International, airport costs notwithstanding.

To be clear, Southwest - its great service, motivated employees, and incredible brand equity notwithstanding - is an airline under siege. Quietly, but still under very serious siege.To be sure, this can be said of any airline, but WN has some real issues of its own.

Labor costs are high. Fuel will edge up for them next year. Meanwhile, legacy carriers are getting their own costs down - to the point that they're on the ragged edge of actually breaking-even or making a profit. Without fuel hedges, which are essentially a situation where the somebody else is getting the short end of the deal, Southwest would be losing money. And, while the carrier is well-hedged going forward, its fuel bill is still going to go up nastily in 2006 and 2007.

But most dangerously for Southwest, the LCC skies are getting more and more crowded. Look for another 250 or so 100+ seat airliners over the next three years, including just those with planned deliveries at AirTran, jetBlue, and Southwest. A lot of those competitors to Southwest have raised the service ante, with seat assignment, inflight entertainment, and wider seats. The number of markets where the low-cost, price-stimulated model can work is not unlimited. And as The Boyd Group was the first to point out, the LCC model is not well suited to take advantage of the new emerging revenue flows between mid-size communities, as well as those developing to international points.

So here's the sea change: Southwest - regardless of the sunshine media stories - is no longer alone, nor is it immune from competition from other LCCs, nor from re-structured legacy carriers. Far from being the invincible airline dreadnought that some lightweight Wall Streeters think it is, Southwest has a lot of vulnerabilities. (Again, after these become too obvious to miss, the same clowns will be "forecasting" the problems at Southwest.)

That's the bad part.

Understand The Problem & It's Already 50% Solved. The good part, at least for Southwest, is that they seem to be fully aware of it. One of the reasons that Southwest has survived and prospered over the last thirty years is that they've never taken their press or PR completely seriously. Sure, they've reveled in all the good news coverage. They've leveraged the stories of their chairman's motorcycle and his free-spirit approach to running an airline. They've put on incredibly wacky public relations stunts that are the stuff of airline lore. But at the bottom line, all the frivolity has never gotten in the way of strong customer focus, level-headed planning, and operating a ruthlessly-efficient airline. That means they have a clear understanding of the future, and it's beyond question they know what they're facing.

First, There's This Fuel Thing. The brilliant and innovative decision to take the chance on long term and massive fuel hedges has paid off handsomely for the airline. In fact, the hedges are the main reason that Southwest is reporting any profits at all. And that's part of the siege - the basic Southwest model as it's structured today doesn't make money at $2+ jet fuel. The revenue flows just are not there.

Second, There's This Labor Thing. Southwest today has among the highest labor rates in the industry. It's been offset by the carrier's ability to fly more hours, lowering average ASM costs. It's worked great so far, to everybody's benefit. (To read some of these alleged analysts, one might think that paying employees above the food stamp level is a crime. It's to Southwest's credit that they do pay higher wages.)

Third, There's This Competition Thing. Southwest must increasingly watch its six for other LCCs. jetBlue offers leather seats, wider seats, and free TV to keep the little brats shut-up on the long flight to see Grand Ma in 'Lauderdale. Frontier has TV, too. Other LCCs, like AirTran & Spirit, have business cabins, which can develop brand loyalty.

And virtually all of them offer seat assignment, while Southwest still does not. The official line is that it's no big deal, and Southwest isn't sure if customers are willing to pay the extra costs of having seat assignment. The reality is that the competition is offering it, even when they match WN fares. The head'em-up-and-move'em-out boarding system might be perfectly acceptable for the Dallas business traveler heading to Lubbock. But it's woefully outclassed in long-haul and transcon markets. That family of four that didn't have a computer to check in early at WN, might find that little Johnny may have to sit in 34E, six rows from mamma, between two Mohammed Atta look-alikes on their way to a jihad convention in 'Vegas. That's a severe disadvantage for Southwest - one that may be a real Achilles heel as they take on Frontier and United at Denver.

Yep. It is an airline under siege. But it's one that's fully aware of what they need to do to survive. The old game plan is getting a facelift. Unlike most the swooning media and academics who rave on about costs, Southwest does understand that it's the revenue stream that will make or break it or any airline. If you can't cut costs, then you'd better add lots and lots more revenue to your system.

The Solution: Show Me The Revenue Streams. Hence, Philadelphia. Hence, Denver. The revenue imperative now trumps, to a large degree, airport costs. If they have an alternative, like Boeing Field, okay. But if not, they're now focused on gaining more revenue to spread their costs even at high cost airports, as long as the traffic base is huge.

And that brings us back to the Denver issue, which illuminates the challenges that Southwest is facing. Three years ago, Colorado Springs was the odds-on option to enter this region. It was cheap. It could draw passengers from Denver as well as from most of the I-25 Colorado Corridor. And that's what the carrier said, too. But the new competitive environment changed all that.

Remember, Southwest can only offset higher labor and other costs by flying more ASMs, spreading the expense over more product. As they grow, too, they add employees - all at the entry level of the pay scale. The combination tends to moderate ASM costs.

The potential fly in the ointment is that getting ASM costs down by flying more is easy. The hard part is making sure that most of those ASMs are matched to an RPM - i.e., Southwest must fill those new seats in the sky. They can't take any chances in that regard. Today, the only safe way of doing it is entering or expanding at markets that are really big. Denver is just such a market, regardless of the airport costs.

These new realities knock Colorado Springs out of the running. At COS Southwest would be dependent there on gaining reverse leakage from the Denver Metroplex, as Western Pacific did in the mid 1990s. Or as WN has been doing at Manchester, drawing passengers from the Boston area.

But to get people to drive an hour for a low fare is predicated by the local airport not having such fares in the first place. Ten years ago, that was the case at Denver. Today, there's not only Frontier, but also a re-structured United, matching F9's fares. That means there'd be less traffic willing to drive to catch a WN flight at COS. It's a risk that Southwest cannot afford to take.

Buttressing this, and only anecdotally, there have been indications that WN's Florida traffic at MHT and PVD has been vulnerable, now that jetBlue is firmly installed at Boston Logan. In short, the peripheral airport gig is not as much of a sure thing as it used to be.

Bottom line: Denver International's cost have not dropped anywhere near as much as Southwest's need for lots of new passengers has increased. It's a new world. Southwest now has to react to competitive market conditions.

Instead of the other way around.

 

[jimmyd]

Mike Boyd - what a wind bag. For years, he states Southwest would never re-enter DIA - high costs, doesn't fit the Southwest model, yada, yada, yada. Oops, how's that working out for you. We always get to hear how Boyd has correctly predicted every event in the airline industry. I believe he was involved in the frist flight by the Wright Bros. Anyway, I'm sure we will not be hearing him utter the words "I was wrong about Southwest and DIA"