Socialism

[Kev3188]

Fascism seeks to align the state with corporate interests. Please explain why/how you feel that's coming from the left currently.

 

[dapoes]

Fascism seeks to align the state with corporate interests. Please explain why/how you feel that's coming from the left currently.

So this more about the lefts war on capitalism then anything else. Answer me this, without wealth creators there are no jobs. Without jobs there are no taxes to fund your socialist nightmare. So how to you propose this utopian socialist society to sustain itself?

 

[southwind]

Dell, where'd you get this from?

Can't say I disagree with any of the points made, except for the racism accusation. While likely true in the past, I'd say today that greed is the overriding issue, and that most of the wealthy elite are equal opportunity exploiters...

(cue Dapoes' rebuttal, replete with ironic "successories" graphic)

Ah...............spoken like a true communist, Comrade !

Something stopping you from starting your own company and becoming one of the "Evil Rich" ?

My bad! Probably lack of initiative and being a union lackey, depending on others for your well being !

 

[Kev3188]

So this more about the lefts war on capitalism then anything else. Answer me this, without wealth creators there are no jobs. Without jobs there are no taxes to fund your socialist nightmare. So how to you propose this utopian socialist society to sustain itself?

What's wrong with labor and business standing side by side? Where are the sustainable jobs being created now? I mean living wage jobs, not minimum wage service sector jobs. We keep up this pace, and the only options left for our kids will be A] Suing people B] Selling securities or C] Flipping burgers.

Ah...............spoken like a true communist, Comrade !

Something stopping you from starting your own company and becoming one of the "Evil Rich" ?

My bad! Probably lack of initiative and being a union lackey, depending on others for your well being !

The above proves just how little you know about me. I 'spose that's a good thing...

Ya know, I look forward to your posts. I see them as a bit of a touchstone. No matter how inane I think people are, there you are to show it can always be worse.

Now, take a deep breath, collect yourself, and go back and look at the text I cited. Here, I'll make it easy for you:


"Working people around the world have always sought a future without war, exploitation, inequality, and poverty. They strive to build a brighter future, one based on democracy, peace, justice, equality, cooperation, and meeting human needs."


If there's *any* concepts listed that you're against, please post what they are, and why you're against them.

 

[dapoes]

What's wrong with labor and business standing side by side?

Because there are far less examples of this relationship that actually works over the long term. I understand what your saying but unfortunately the real world doesn't work that way. People like Richard Trumka and Andy Stern (and AFA) are not interested in a relationship that actually works. Its all about money and power these days. Which is ironic since the formation of unions was to protect the workers from those very same robber baron antics. Now they are the robber barons.

The unions generally want it their way until their contracts are broken under bankruptcy. Perfect example is the current WI debacle. Look at the auto industry, steel industry, etc. They are a mere shadow of what they were. And the cause? Unions that steamrolled the company/institution/taxpayer into history.

 

[dapoes]

Look at whats happening in long time held highly socialist leaning countries in europe. They finally realized that it cannot be sustained.

Germany and Sweden for example has suffered a devastating loss from the long held Social Democrats and are slowly moving away.

Germany:

On Sunday, the pre-eminent party of European socialism, the German Social Democrats (SDP), had their worst election since the end of World War II, winning a scant 23 percent of the vote, down from 34 percent the last time the Germans went to the polls....

Europe's socialists suffer from three major maladies. First, each of their parties has been the champion of the welfare state in their respective nations, but the political support for universal welfare states has weakened as immigrants have transformed the populations of the hitherto homogenous European states. Second, the relative numerical decline of the blue-collar working class across Western Europe has compelled the parties of the left to embrace new constituencies and new agendas, some of which conflict with their old constituencies and agendas. And third, though globalization has not had the catastrophic effect on European workers that it has had on their American counterparts, it has weakened the nation state's ability to manage its own economy and secure it from harm, undermining the arena where socialists won their greatest victories.

Sweden:

Sweden wakes up to a new reality

When the people of Sweden woke up on Monday morning, they faced a radically changed political landscape. To the Social Democrats, the party that defined modern Sweden, voters had handed the worst election result for nearly a century. For Fredrik Reinfeldt's centre-right Moderates these were the best results since full democracy was introduced. Yet this country that prides itself on tolerance and equality had also let in an anti-immigrant populist party, which now holds the balance of power in Sweden's parliament.

The party, which has ruled Sweden for 65 of the past 78 years and built up the Swedish model of a highly taxed state with generous welfare benefits, has seen its share of the vote fall to just 30.8 percent. The result is the worst for the party since 1914, and puts it at level pegging with the Moderates for the first time. Moreover, this was the second election the party had lost in a row. For the first time since the 1970s, the centre-right would rule for two terms.

 

[Kev3188]

Because there are far less examples of this relationship that actually works over the long term.

Just because something has not worked previously does not mean it can't in the future. Just sayin'...

Andy Stern

I've said it before on here, and I'll say it again; Stern is/was a far greater enemy of labor than many of the companies he was going against.

 

[dapoes]

Just because something has not worked previously does not mean it can't in the future. Just sayin'...

I know what you mean Kev. But unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. If organized labor was what it used to be then it probably wouldn't be that bad. But its not. It hasn't for a long, long time.

I've said it before on here, and I'll say it again; Stern is/was a far greater enemy of labor than many of the companies he was going against.

That is true however it seems that the direction of organized labor took a turn for the worst under people like him. Trumka isn't any better either.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Trumka isn't any better either.

Richard Trumka comes from a specific place. In that I mean that much of who he is has been defined by his past. A past born of ancestors being paid in company script, coal company housing with no running water or indoor plumbing. Much of this occurred in his lifetime plus he lived in an area steeped in the oral traditions and heard the stories from friends and relatives.

I'm not a giant fan of his views, however I do understand where they come from. We are all colored by our past and the events that transpire around us. My near hatred of the Federal Government started the day I got my Draft Card, I was watching the news and I saw a protestor who had a sign that said "Who are our Generals in Viet Nam?" General Motors? General Dynamics? General Electric?"

It was right then and there I realized that my government had sold my body to the shareholders of these and other companies as cannon fodder for their interests. A few weeks later my Mom asked, "What are you going to do if you get drafted?" My reply was "Well I'm not going in the military and I'm not going to Canada so I guess I'm going to jail". I lucked out as they took up to 89 that year and my lottery number was 283.

I see the words "Federal Program" and I think BOHICA. Can't help it and the point is that Trumka's past will forever color his future.

 

[dapoes]

Can't help it and the point is that Trumka's past will forever color his future.

Yup, he has blood on his hands....

 

[SparrowHawk]

Yup, he has blood on his hands....

Ignoring for the moment the source and it's obvious bias this is not surprising that he would be involved given the coal mining violence which as I pointed out in another post was in response to the State sanctioned violence of the Coal operators and their gun things. Trumka and the UMW of A learned well the lessons taught by the Baldwin Felts Agency, Coal Operators with the end result being Eddie York paid with his life for the sins of the past. The initiation of force against a citizen by the Government, Labor or industry can never be tolerated and there can be no excuse for the death of Eddie york. However one would do well to note that the Sheriff's, Baldwins and other anti-union folks have killed far more than Eddie York in the coal fields of Appalachia.

Not in any way excusing what happened with York, just pointing out that the culture of violence was there in the '20's through apparently to this very day.

 

[dapoes]

Ignoring for the moment the source and it's obvious bias this is not surprising that he would be involved given the coal mining violence which as I pointed out in another post was in response to the State sanctioned violence of the Coal operators and their gun things. Trumka and the UMW of A learned well the lessons taught by the Baldwin Felts Agency, Coal Operators with the end result being Eddie York paid with his life for the sins of the past. The initiation of force against a citizen by the Government, Labor or industry can never be tolerated and there can be no excuse for the death of Eddie york. However one would do well to note that the Sheriff's, Baldwins and other anti-union folks have killed far more than Eddie York in the coal fields of Appalachia.

Not in any way excusing what happened with York, just pointing out that the culture of violence was there in the '20's through apparently to this very day.

Well bless your heart, I knew you would spin this into a justifiable event. Libertarian my fat arse. More like just another liberal progressive.

 

[delldude]

We're already inching ever closely towards being a fascist state. If the ideological fringe of the right gets their way, the circle will be complete. I would like to stop that, and turn the tide the other way. If that makes me whatever "ist" the right is demonizing today, then so be it.

That's odd you equate the direction of the nation as going fascist.
What of the already infiltrated in both houses socialist/marxist ideologies directing our way under Obama?
And America is fascist for waking up and seeing these idiotic entitlements and over the top spending schemes as unsustainable?
Where is your head at?
The recent election change says in volumes that the American citizen rejects progressive socialist/marxist changes to our representative republic.
Americans want freedom from government intervention and their freedom to choose as they want whether to their benefit or not.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Well bless your heart, I knew you would spin this into a justifiable event. Libertarian my fat arse. More like just another liberal progressive.

NEVER once did I justify the taking of a life! Either by the Baldwins or the UMW of A.

You want some Liberal Democrats to trash check out Fast Eddie Rendel and the Neil Ferber case in PHL where Rendel KNOWINGLY pit an innocent man on death row to further his political career.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/paFerberSummary.html

 

[dapoes]

NEVER once did I justify the taking of a life! Either by the Baldwins or the UMW of A.

You want some Liberal Democrats to trash check out Fast Eddie Rendel and the Neil Ferber case in PHL where Rendel KNOWINGLY pit an innocent man on death row to further his political career.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/paFerberSummary.html

Yes you did justify the killing due to the events of another. Just like in the other thread where you justify killings of millions as long as it doesn't come and rain on your parade. Pretty warped my friend. Pretty warped.