Question Regarding Ramp Outsourcing

[wings396]

Yes there may be a 3-6 Month learning curve. The problem is that a lot of these low wage contract boys don't stick around much more than that. So to sum it up for you, the revolving door of learing curve employess becomes a problem. I guess they left that small detail of of the operation mangement course that you speak of.

 

[Dog Wonder]

When you trade a 20 year employee with someone who has six months, the margin for error safety wise gets much larger.

 

[RedOne]

I disagree with your 3-6 months of time to train a F/S agent. Yes, after that amount of tiime they will be able to properly load an aircraft, know how to read bagtags, and probably be able to push-back an aircraft. (IF there is someone there to properly train them.) They learn that by working side by side with a crew of experienced employees. If they don't have experienced people to guide and direct, from whom do they learn? If they are ALL hired in April ...next November when none of them have ever deiced an aircraft who is going to be there with experience to show them. They don't tell you how to refill the truck in deice class. Will they just automatically know now to do that? Get all new hires and let the fog roll in. Gate, what do you mean the flight can't take off? What do we do? What's this stuff in the cargo bins that glows in the dark? Is it normal for Human Remains to leak fluid? Somebody just called on the phone and said we have a bomb threat...what do we do? A flight just called in and said they are 13 minutes out with a cardiac arrest on board. Anybody know what we are supposed to do? Oh, shazam....we have a plane with blown tires at mid-field. Anybody know which firebottle I should grab? Do the people have to walk from the airplane to the terminal? Do I put these oxygen generators in the front of the airplane or in the rear?
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I don't blame anyone who has not been trained as a "Trainer" to refuse to train someone......especially when the person who has been hired was done so to send the experienced agent already there to the street. Glad I'm retired. Glad I don't have to go anywhere for a while.

 

[airbiiguy]

I disagree with your 3-6 months of time to train a F/S agent. Yes, after that amount of tiime they will be able to properly load an aircraft, know how to read bagtags, and probably be able to push-back an aircraft. (IF there is someone there to properly train them.) They learn that by working side by side with a crew of experienced employees. If they don't have experienced people to guide and direct, from whom do they learn? If they are ALL hired in April ...next November when none of them have ever deiced an aircraft who is going to be there with experience to show them. They don't tell you how to refill the truck in deice class. Will they just automatically know now to do that? Get all new hires and let the fog roll in. Gate, what do you mean the flight can't take off? What do we do? What's this stuff in the cargo bins that glows in the dark? Is it normal for Human Remains to leak fluid? Somebody just called on the phone and said we have a bomb threat...what do we do? A flight just called in and said they are 13 minutes out with a cardiac arrest on board. Anybody know what we are supposed to do? Oh, shazam....we have a plane with blown tires at mid-field. Anybody know which firebottle I should grab? Do the people have to walk from the airplane to the terminal? Do I put these oxygen generators in the front of the airplane or in the rear?
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I don't blame anyone who has not been trained as a "Trainer" to refuse to train someone......especially when the person who has been hired was done so to send the experienced agent already there to the street. Glad I'm retired. Glad I don't have to go anywhere for a while.

[post="257087"][/post]​

You do bring up some valids points Red Dog. Im sure airways will send supervisors and managers from other stations to train these "scabs." I'm sure they will send people to TDY in these affected cities so the new "scabs" can learn all about the things you mentioned above. Maybe other airline employees will help these new folks out also.
The world will not end with new hires working flights.Do I want 20 yr people working my flight , hell yea! But it's not going to continue so we have to deal with that.

 

[RedOne]

Several years ago I was sent to an air cargo class. Some of those present were cargo managers and supervisors from about 4 different air cargo facilities. All these facilities had been contraced out. These folk worked for several airlines including U....all with different ways of doing things. They were clueless about how we functioned and what the rules were...and they were managers and supervisors. There was also agents there who were contract employees. As best as I can remember, most had less than one years experience. Several of them were having a real hard time grasping the rules, entries, etc. One of them, on test day, pasted his test in about 10 minutes after the test had been passed out. Later when I exited the building, he was standing outside smoking while waiting for the limo back to the terminal. I asked, "Well how do you think you did?" His reply, "Man, I didn't know that stuff. What they gonna do....fire me? It don't matter. I'm making min. wage now....if they fire me, I'll just go find me another min job."

This is what you are going to get when you pay min wage.....min wage mentality. It's a scary thing to know this is what is going to be working ops, air cargo, ramp. If they are indeed "new hires" off the street....I'm serious, I would not want to put my family on an airplane they had handled. At least not at the beginning.

 

[airbiiguy]

you guys win. Ive given up. Maybe its the old timers lack of understanding that did them all in.

 

[Kev3188]

I Do I put these oxygen generators in the front of the airplane or in the rear?

[post="257087"][/post]​

Hopefully, no one puts them on at all.

 

[RedOne]

airbiiguy Posted
you guys win. Ive given up. Maybe its the old timers lack of understanding that did them all in.
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I had 38 1/2 yrs in as an agent when I retired just a few months ago. As with all jobs in the airline business, there is more to them than it appears. It has always been that the old timers experience and knowledge was passed down to the new guys. What would happen if all new hires were immedately given 4 stripes instead of 3? What would happen if all new hires on a flight (capt, F/O, and all F/A) were rookies? Yes, if they didn't kill themselves and others, they would eventually learn what and how to do. Do you think that after their inital training should they be ready do the job completely, safely, and quickly? How long would you give them then? 6 mo.....or 1yr.....or would it take longer? I want my flight crews, mechanics, and ground crew to KNOW what they are doing. Most of knowledge is learned by hands on. If there are no experienced hands there to guide, disaster is just around the corner. Experience (old timers)....Lives depend on it. ...........

I don't get what you meant by "the old timers lack of understanding did them all in". Management did them in.

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Kev3188 Posted
QUOTE(RedOne @ Mar 18 2005, 07:47 PM)
I Do I put these oxygen generators in the front of the airplane or in the rear?

Hopefully, no one puts them on at all.

Hopefully, no one will. But if you were a newhire and someone brought you some what would you do? Somebody, somewhere has to have the knowledge and experience to turn them down. If everybody is newhires....who is to know?

 

[Kev3188]

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Kev3188 Posted
QUOTE(RedOne @ Mar 18 2005, 07:47 PM)
I Do I put these oxygen generators in the front of the airplane or in the rear?

Hopefully, no one puts them on at all.

Hopefully, no one will. But if you were a newhire and someone brought you some what would you do? Somebody, somewhere has to have the knowledge and experience to turn them down. If everybody is newhires....who is to know?

[post="257138"][/post]​

Exactly my point. I'm with you on this. Too many people on this board are deluded into thinking that working the ramp requires the intellect of a chimp. No, it's not rocket science, but there is more to it than people on the outside see, often (a evidenced with Valujet) with life or death consequences. To those that are all for contracting out in order to save the airline, I ask: Think that a vendor is really going to put his all into a security check? Think they'll give a sh*t about making sure the connecting bag info is entered correctly into the computer so the guys at the hub can get bags/freight to the correct planes quickly? Think they have a vested interest in making sure the cabin is cleaned?

Training plays a significant role, but you're right, RedOne, most of that knowledge is gleaned from the senior folks working next to you. I'd say that of all of my "ramp knowledge," 15-20% came from official training, with the balance being passed down.

As for Airbiiguy, since you claim to have worked both the ramp and counter, shame on you; you of all people should know better. Next time put some thought into what you post. :angry:

 

[airbiiguy]

Exactly my point. I'm with you on this. Too many people on this board are deluded into thinking that working the ramp requires the intellect of a chimp. No, it's not rocket science, but there is more to it than people on the outside see, often (a evidenced with Valujet) with life or death consequences. To those that are all for contracting out in order to save the airline, I ask: Think that a vendor is really going to put his all into a security check? Think they'll give a sh*t about making sure the connecting bag info is entered correctly into the computer so the guys at the hub can get bags/freight to the correct planes quickly? Think they have a vested interest in making sure the cabin is cleaned?

Training plays a significant role, but you're right, RedOne, most of that knowledge is gleaned from the senior folks working next to you. I'd say that of all of my "ramp knowledge," 15-20% came from official training, with the balance being passed down.

As for Airbiiguy, since you claim to have worked both the ramp and counter, shame on you; you of all people should know better. Next time put some thought into what you post. :angry:

[post="257226"][/post]​

Shame on you for being an ignorant person. You guys overcomplicate the tasks which are given to you. And as I said before, I am looking at thi from a mature point of view, you guys are always right ...never wrong. Hey, I realized whats going on earlier than most and got out of this hellhole. You guys are the ones who are gonna pay with losing your jobs and pensions along with it. It's funny that if anyone disagrees with you unionista people then you get ganged up on. READ my previus posts and you will see that i feel bad for everyone at Airways. But I also looked at this from the other point of view to make it a fair analysis of whats going on. :down:

 

[Kev3188]

Shame on you for being an ignorant person. You guys overcomplicate the tasks which are given to you. And as I said before, I am looking at thi from a mature point of view, you guys are always right ...never wrong. Hey, I realized whats going on earlier than most and got out of this hellhole. You guys are the ones who are gonna pay with losing your jobs and pensions along with it. It's funny that if anyone disagrees with you unionista people then you get ganged up on. READ my previus posts and you will see that i feel bad for everyone at Airways. But I also looked at this from the other point of view to make it a fair analysis of whats going on.  :down:

[post="257264"][/post]​

First let me say that I don't work for US, but rather at another legacy carrier.

I don't think anyone is overcomplicating anything (in fact, I said "it wasn't rocket science."), rather it is you who has decided that since working on the ramp doesn't require a degree, then anyone with an IQ of 12 or more can do it. What I think most on here are trying to convey is that doing the job well involves not accredadation, but rather education, and that is not something you can get in a class or learn over a weekend from someone on TDY from CLT. What you so conveniently elided over was all of the "what ifs" that happen everyday, most with customer service ramifications, some with life or death consequences. It would seem that you have bought part and parcel into the concept that vendoring out services is a panacea to cure everything and save US, but completely missed (or chose to ignore) the probable consequences, which will prove much more costly in the end. If you worked counter and ramp like you've claimed, then none of this should have to be pointed out to you. I HAVE read your previous posts, which is the sole reason I called bullsh*t on your condescending attitude on this thread. READ mine again to see the reasons why.

Mature point of view? Fair analysis? Hardly.

 

[diogenes]

The new hires just returned from training in CLT. They sat in a class 8 hrs a day for a week.

Not once were thay taken on the ramp, given a/c familiarization or ground equipment operation. Then they were turned loose in the station.

When I was training coordinator, you didn't graduate until you could operate every piece of equipment, work safely on the ramp, be familiar with the bird and understand all of the basic computer stuff. Plus a full understanding of the facility layout. And after all of that, you got handheld by a senior employee for a while. Of course, that was at a real airline.

I wonder how far the company will allow the margain of safety to shrink?

 

[RedOne]

You guys overcomplicate the tasks which are given to you. And as I said before, I am looking at thi from a mature point of view, you guys are always right ...never wrong.......,  You guys are the ones who are gonna pay with losing your jobs and pensions along with it. It's funny that if anyone disagrees with you unionista people then you get ganged up on.

[post="257264"][/post]​

I am retired. I am drawing my pension. It is not going to effect me one little bit when stations are contracted out and replacements are hired off the street. Do I want to see it happen....absolutely not. Is it going to happen....absoutely. With 38+ yrs, I do have enough experience to know there can and probably will be some major problems. I am not "ganging up" on you or anyone else from a union point. I dispise the union I was in. I will argue with you till the cows come home, as a person with knowledge and experience, if you make comments that are full of holes. The issues I mentioned are just a few of things that can and will happen. And they can have an impact on the safety of the airline.

 

[Hope777]

I would guess that in some cities, United will ground handle USAirways. The cost savings is mininal as far as the employees. The real cost savings comes in the form of Equipment, Insurance,GSE Maintenance and Fuel.

 

[robbedagain]

i called den the other day and a group that handles midwest, air train and a few others is done by a company called integrated or something like that. i am surprised that ual isnt doing it since den is their major hub. i wonder if america west will ground handle usair flts in phx?