PUP Scorecard 2008

[The Goose]

So what you're saying is the worthless union would not be able to negotiate a meaningful amount of upside for you, especially when compared to the executives? And because of that, you're not even interested?



Unfortunately, the worthless union failed you and your coworkers.

UA pilots and mechanics got 55% of the equity of their employer in exchange for massive concessions in the Nineties. The worthless union (along with the equally impotent APA and APFA) settled for a mere 19% of the equity of AMR. As I've posted previously, the work groups should have demanded a much larger percentage.

Perhaps now is the time to demand 60% or 80% of the equity of AMR? Stock is currently nearly worthless but probably has some upside.

And unlike the suckers at UAL, I'm not talking about an ESOP. It wasn't the fact that they owned 55% of the company that was the problem - the ESOP was the problem.



So on the one hand, there's no way your union will be able to negotitate meaningful variable compensation (see your first paragraph of this post) yet on the other hand you think they can successfully negotiate restoration of the 2003 concessions? Pay no attention to that inconsistency - or the mechanic behind the curtain.

I'd be happy to take variable compensation with a few conditions:

Holidays, vacation (immediate VC and sick restoration as that's the way it was taken), and other benefits restored. 50% of pay taken in 2003 restored. That sets the base point.

Variable compensation exactly the same formula as the executive formula and would change automatically of the executive formula is changed. Tying our pay to the exec compensation would help insure they'll not be so willing to cut throats.

 

[nbmcg01]

I'd be happy to take variable compensation with a few conditions:

Holidays, vacation (immediate VC and sick restoration as that's the way it was taken), and other benefits restored. 50% of pay taken in 2003 restored. That sets the base point.

Variable compensation exactly the same formula as the executive formula and would change automatically of the executive formula is changed. Tying our pay to the exec compensation would help insure they'll not be so willing to cut throats.

Hey, not to worry! They are going to furlough 323 experienced front line workers which the Company estimates @ $50,000 a year (pay and bennies), that should cover some of it. Do the math. It is what it is... Those wonderful executives that AA just could not surivive without need their retention pay... In this economy I'll bet they wouldn't blink an eye without it..Ask how many senior executives now looking for work if they would like the job for the negotiated salary alone. I'll bet you you easily fill those jobs with well qualified persons.

 

[The Goose]

Hey, not to worry! They are going to furlough 323 experienced front line workers which the Company estimates @ $50,000 a year (pay and bennies), that should cover some of it. Do the math. It is what it is... Those wonderful executives that AA just could not surivive without need their retention pay... In this economy I'll bet they wouldn't blink an eye without it..Ask how many senior executives now looking for work if they would like the job for the negotiated salary alone. I'll bet you you easily fill those jobs with well qualified persons.

That's what I'd like to know - if it's so important to retain these failures in the so-called management ranks, where would they go? Retention payments are the greatest red herring ever in the United States. It's good-buddie swag and nothing else.

Re: qualified people - qualifications and abilities are two totally different things. At AA, we have an overabundance of qualification in the managerial ranks and a dearth of ability therein, though they are rather adept at slinging poo with one hand while (deleted by moderator) with the other - kinda like a zoo's monkey cage but this one is stocked with frat boys.

 

[FWAAA]

But AA, along with several other airlines, did receive federal funds in the wake of 9-11.

Actually, in 2002, every airline in the US received its proportionate share of the $5 billion reimbursement for the three day air system shutdown. Later, in 2003, all US airlines received round two - representing the costs of hardened flight deck doors plus their share of the September 11 Security Fees received up to that date.

The fact that managers at AMR continue to take bonuses while AA continues to tank and the employees continue to work under concessionary contracts is something the unions should make very clear to the public. Given the fallout from the AIG bonuses, the public should be in no mood to hear that airline execs are reaping bonuses after the airline received federal aid.

Once again, an awful lot of focus on others' paychecks instead of how to increase one's own paycheck. It's what my kids do - they keep careful score of what the other gets, instead of focusing on getting more for themself.

The argument that top managers need to be compensated in order to retain their expertise does not fly in today's economic climate. Where exactly will they go? Who is banging down their doors to recruit them?

You may be right. But AArpey and Horton and some of the other senior management have enough nuts stored up to simply quit if they wanted. And the problem then is how to attract replacements? But you might be right. Cancel the execs PSP payouts and see if they stay.

 

[The Goose]

...
Cancel the execs PSP payouts and see if they stay.

It'd be fun to watch, if nothing else.

Attract others? Why can't the positions be outsourced as HR functions were? Wouldn't the "work" get done cheaper? There's really no reason to keep the high dollar personnel on the payroll.

I'll bet a bunch of upper management types could be hired from India for a lot less. Perhaps they could manage without the need of the outside groups (ECLAT, RLG, etc. and et al) at additional expense.

 

[ArtTang]

FWAA writes:
Once again, an awful lot of focus on others' paychecks instead of how to increase one's own paycheck. It's what my kids do - they keep careful score of what the other gets, instead of focusing on getting more for themself.

So are you saying that we should ignore the executive payouts while our unions continue to be stonewalled by the company's negotiators? The reason for which the unions should educate the workers and the public on the ongoing executive bonuses is to put pressure on management to step up to the plate vis-a-vis contractual negotiations. I am very cognizant of the need for the unions to focus on improving wages and work rules/benefits for their respective members. One important way of realizing this goal is to shine light on the culture of executive greed at the expense of the employees and, for that matter, the customer. Workers at AA have never been more financially challenged and the customer is subjected to an unprecedented level of filth and general disrepair in our planes (I am speaking of non-safety related issues here, such as video screens and lavatories that remain inoperative for days on end). Indeed, customer service has deteriorated to the point where the passenger now pays for almost everything but the air he breathes during a flight. None of this matters to the execs, however, as long as they retain their bonuses.

Despite all the empty rhetoric the company rammed down our throats during the restructuring debacle, there has never been a sense of shared sacrifice when it comes to keeping this company afloat. The execs may have taken a pay cut along with the rest of us, but they sure have made it up with their annual bonuses...even as the rest of the workers at AA fall further behind as the annual inflation rates compile year over year. So you see, it is important that we remain aware of executive payouts because such a focus may assist us in different ways, such as when we need to call upon the public for support in the event self-help becomes warranted.

 

[Hopeful]

Well said, Art!

But Senior VP Maintenance clearly iterated the company's stance...."IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, QUIT."



Great management team we have here at AA.....

 

[BigBangTheory]

PUP day = Call in Sick Day!!

Get some guts and let's all call in sick!

 

[Ralph]

:cop: Warning! Attempts to turn the discussion on this thread to any topic other than the PUP payouts will result in your suspension and deletion of the post with no further warning. This applies to all threads/all forums. Also, attacking the poster rather than their post will also result in suspension. Stick to the topic at hand. Thank you. :cop:

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

PUP day = Call in Sick Day!!

Get some guts and let's all call in sick!

I don't think that's the right response at all. Illegal job actions are just that - illegal. If you're going to play dirty like that, how can you expect that the execs wouldn't take the pay to which they are entitled under their contract?

 

[BigBangTheory]

I don't think that's the right response at all. Illegal job actions are just that - illegal. If you're going to play dirty like that, how can you expect that the execs wouldn't take the pay to which they are entitled under their contract?

I think it's a great idea! What goes around, comes around. AA Exces are a worthless piece of crAAp!

 

[frontline]

You know what, "brother"? That's just ridiculous. The airline can't run without a full team, including pilots, FA, mecs, ground workers and managers. Maybe the top is a little bloated, but I know they have suffered lay offs too.

It is an ignorant statement of you to come on here and say they are worthless. Were they worthless when they kept our company out of the courts while the other airlines begged the government for money and to take their pension plans? I am an AMR shareholder as well as employee, and not having that position wiped out means something. So for you to say they are worthless is just ignorant claptrap.

 

[Hopeful]

It is an ignorant statement of you to come on here and say they are worthless. Were they worthless when they kept our company out of the courts while the other airlines begged the government for money and to take their pension plans? I am an AMR shareholder as well as employee, and not having that position wiped out means something. So for you to say they are worthless is just ignorant claptrap.

What saved this company was the employees sacrifice. I'm tired of hearing how the poor executives took paycuts too....What garbage....with the help of their pups, they more than made up for what they lost with the very first PUP payout.

WORTHLESS is a senior vp telling workers if they don't like it they can quit. But when an all so-valuable exec demands higher compensation OR ELSE, the company finds the money.

 

[Winglet]

Were they worthless when they kept our company out of the courts while the other airlines begged the government for money and to take their pension plans? I am an AMR shareholder as well as employee, and not having that position wiped out means something. So for you to say they are worthless is just ignorant claptrap.

If I were you, I'd dump AMR stock soon. After creating a super-hostile work environment for all labor groups and 3 labor contracts being stalled by management into oblivion, this company's a dead duck. There ZERO leadership. I expect a surprise bankruptcy before the senior pilots can execute their retirement lump sums and a trip into BK court, that is if Arpey can get the financing. If not, then AA goes chapter 7. Whatever happens, management has gotten the labor unions it deserves.

 

[eolesen]

The smart guys locked their lump sums last year while they could. The rest of you are probably stuck for another year or two until the market recovers. And, IIRC, the lump sum funds are more or less bankruptcy proof to the same degree the SERP is.