Don't even begin to tell me what I need to lookup to understand my job!...You resigned, Why? Couldn't handle it.?...If you think you really know what's going on here at AA then you will also understand the CompAAny has decided to turn flights around within 40 minutes of arrivial..With those time constraints, No Way in HELL, are you getting a Pre-Departure, nor your coat hung..Do it yourself, or sit in coach! It's you choice...Better yet,... Fly another airline...So Choose and move on! I am not LOSING anymore of my "HARD WORKED " salary on pre-madonna's like you!
Predepartue drinks in First Class
- Thread starter Fang
- Start date
Don't even begin to tell me what I need to lookup to understand my job!...You resigned, Why? Couldn't handle it.?...If you think you really know what's going on here at AA then you will also understand the CompAAny has decided to turn flights around within 40 minutes of arrivial..With those time constraints, No Way in HELL, are you getting a Pre-Departure, nor your coat hung..Do it yourself, or sit in coach! It's you choice...Better yet,... Fly another airline...So Choose and move on! I am not LOSING anymore of my "HARD WORKED " salary on pre-madonna's like you!
If it's being done on a regular basis, why the omplaints about pre-departure drinks? Also, Eolesen? Is your drink being picked up, and thrown away, before the plane begins moving? Doubt IT! These F/A's who don't do this prior to the pushback of the A/C are in violation of FAA mandates, thus resulting in thousands of dollars inthier own personal fines. Why would one even risk it? AA , nor it's Glorified union will protect you.
Wow love for you to find the FAR that says that or where in the manual it says that.
Boarding section 2.3....Also, pay close attention to the note in the right hand corner....I thought you were senior Mikey, shouldn't you know this!
jimntx
Veteran
Not quite correct. The manual says--Boarding, pg. 2.3...
"Offer F/C and B/C customers pre-departure beverages on all flights unless circumstances or time constraints dictate otherwise." Butchord: Did you read the underlined portion? Also, notice that it does NOT say a pre-departure beverage "of the customer's choice"--a glass of water or juice is a pre-departure beverage.
It goes on to say, "End pre-departure beverage service once the A/C begins to move, and collect all pre-departure service items before takeoff.
By the way Butchord, as far as your comment about something being fishy because you think the FAA has more important things to worry about. Obviously you haven't been flying long enough to have an FAA cabin safety inspector on one of your flights. The items that were mentioned are ALL that a cabin safety inspector is concerned about--every FAR that addresses your actions and required duties on the a/c from the time you step on board until the door opens at the destination. If they don't see you check your safety equipment; if you don't make the PAs listed in your manual--once it is approved by the FAA (and everything in your manual is approved by the FAA before it is included) and inserted in the manual, they can call you on not making it; making sure the bins are closed before the door is closed, doing anything other than safety checks after the safety demo, etc. All and any of it can result in a personal fine for you if it is not done.
And, remember that it is just like driving on the freeway. The law is what the cop on the beat (the FAA Cabin Safety Inspector) says it is. That's why we have lawyers and courts. The FAA Cabin Safety Inspector can issue you a fine for whatever he/she wants to. It is up to you to appeal the fine and try to get it overturned (good luck with that). And, Flyboy4u is correct. Neither the company nor the Blessed Order of the Perpetually Trip-Removed (APFA) will lift a finger to help you.
Butchord, life will be a lot more pleasant if you wil stop getting your panties in a bunch over things you can not control--such as, how other f/as do their jobs. All you are responsible for is how you do your job.
Here is the deal. Yeah I do my job, yeah I could care less if you do a second beverage service or not in the main cabin. But when I am working #4 and hanging coats, and then going up to offer to help with predepartures, when there clearly is plenty of time, I get the....."oh. I'll do predepartures.....when I get my pay and vacation back....or something similar that reflects their lack of effort.
Look I do them, I do them all the time.
You may not, that is fine too.
My argument is not with whether you do them or not.
It is with your excuses and explanations fo rnot doing them.
So don't do them if you don't want to. But don't tell me there isn't time. That is not true.
Look I do them, I do them all the time.
You may not, that is fine too.
My argument is not with whether you do them or not.
It is with your excuses and explanations fo rnot doing them.
So don't do them if you don't want to. But don't tell me there isn't time. That is not true.
I stand corrected Jim on the Boarding section 2.3. However, it is also stated in Section 1.4 Departure/Taxi
" F/As are responsible for completing tge following duties prior to taxi, takeoff,and landing on every flight." One of those items listed include " Service Items Collected ". Hence, a reason an FAA inspector can levy a personal fine if he/she so decides.
Butchord
I am so grateful you have deeppockets and can afford the thousands of dollars in fines that can be brought upon you. I won't even begin to take that kind of a chance. Also, what routes do you fly? Maybe I need to bid them since you seem to have all of this free time to do these services during boarding. I guess that means you have the ability to close al the bins, and check for safety compliances as well before the door is closed...Bravo to you!
" F/As are responsible for completing tge following duties prior to taxi, takeoff,and landing on every flight." One of those items listed include " Service Items Collected ". Hence, a reason an FAA inspector can levy a personal fine if he/she so decides.
Butchord
I am so grateful you have deeppockets and can afford the thousands of dollars in fines that can be brought upon you. I won't even begin to take that kind of a chance. Also, what routes do you fly? Maybe I need to bid them since you seem to have all of this free time to do these services during boarding. I guess that means you have the ability to close al the bins, and check for safety compliances as well before the door is closed...Bravo to you!
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #53
I guess I never knew that my post would have so much hostility to it.
I was just trying to find out why this service is a hit or miss.
F/C passengers are either paying at least 3 or 4 times the amount of Y passengers. They are either upgraded depending on status as FF, or are using a lot of FF miles to sit in that seat. What do we get for spending miles, using status are paying money. A much nicer seat than Y., some more personal attention, a meal (that if served on ground you would not like, for the most part), free drinks. Thats about it on domestic routes. However on international flights the comfort of the seat is more important than anything to me.
I flew DFW to NRT in FC and the product was very, very nice. I have also flown to LHR and CDG in J and it was also a very good product. Does it mach up to JAL, BA ? No I don't think so, but many times I pick to fly AA over those airlines.
I have a problem hearing AA employees say the F/C passengers are snobs etc. I can understand 100 % that many of these passengers are difficult, to say the least. I have seen it myself and wonder what are these people thinking when they talk to the FA they way they do.
I used to fly a lot with TWA. I have flown many times with NWA and CO. I really don't like to do that but, sometimes have to. All of these airlines treated F/C passengers very well. Most of the time AA treats it F/C passengers very well. All of these airlines, have or do offer Predepature drinks on the flights I have been on. I was just wondering why there is such a hit and miss on AA.
Most passengers do not expect FC to be like it was in the past. I remember flying in TWA 747 and going upstairs and having a drink at the bar. Having dinner served right by your seat, and having it be excellent. I remember the piano on Pan-Am flight on the upper deck of a 747. Those days are over, for sure.
As a paying passenger, I would hope never to be called a snob, or be suggested that I take another airline, just because as a paying passenger in FC I ask to have my coat hung up or ask for a drink before takeoff, when time always.
I am proud to fly AA ( there are many very hard working employees and who work in a very difficult time) and it is disturbing to me that some employees view my patronage of AA as not worth the effort, to do a good job, when time warrents it.
No right minded person would complain if time does not warrent good service. No right minded person would want any person to get fined for doing a service. However, if time always it should be done.
I was just trying to find out why this service is a hit or miss.
F/C passengers are either paying at least 3 or 4 times the amount of Y passengers. They are either upgraded depending on status as FF, or are using a lot of FF miles to sit in that seat. What do we get for spending miles, using status are paying money. A much nicer seat than Y., some more personal attention, a meal (that if served on ground you would not like, for the most part), free drinks. Thats about it on domestic routes. However on international flights the comfort of the seat is more important than anything to me.
I flew DFW to NRT in FC and the product was very, very nice. I have also flown to LHR and CDG in J and it was also a very good product. Does it mach up to JAL, BA ? No I don't think so, but many times I pick to fly AA over those airlines.
I have a problem hearing AA employees say the F/C passengers are snobs etc. I can understand 100 % that many of these passengers are difficult, to say the least. I have seen it myself and wonder what are these people thinking when they talk to the FA they way they do.
I used to fly a lot with TWA. I have flown many times with NWA and CO. I really don't like to do that but, sometimes have to. All of these airlines treated F/C passengers very well. Most of the time AA treats it F/C passengers very well. All of these airlines, have or do offer Predepature drinks on the flights I have been on. I was just wondering why there is such a hit and miss on AA.
Most passengers do not expect FC to be like it was in the past. I remember flying in TWA 747 and going upstairs and having a drink at the bar. Having dinner served right by your seat, and having it be excellent. I remember the piano on Pan-Am flight on the upper deck of a 747. Those days are over, for sure.
As a paying passenger, I would hope never to be called a snob, or be suggested that I take another airline, just because as a paying passenger in FC I ask to have my coat hung up or ask for a drink before takeoff, when time always.
I am proud to fly AA ( there are many very hard working employees and who work in a very difficult time) and it is disturbing to me that some employees view my patronage of AA as not worth the effort, to do a good job, when time warrents it.
No right minded person would complain if time does not warrent good service. No right minded person would want any person to get fined for doing a service. However, if time always it should be done.
jimntx
Veteran
As an employee, I'm sorry that you felt the need to apologize for what was an honest question. My whole point was (particularly since a lot of our flights from STL either go to DFW or ORD first) that I doubt any passenger would rather have a pre-departure drink that might cause a delay and make their connection at DFW or ORD impossible. I do not agree AT ALL with f/as who tell you to go fly another airline. That is NEVER an acceptable answer in a service industry--particularly one in which there are so many other choices.
And, as others have pointed out, sometimes the catering is the last thing to arrive at the a/c. I've been on flights where we ended up with a delay waiting on the catering. In such cases, if I am flying #1, I go and explain to the f/c passengers why there were no pre-departures. Unless, I know what time the a/c got to the gate, I hesitate to use juice, water or ice that is in the carts. I've seen times when on first flight of the day, there were oj containers in the galley from the previous day that had been unrefrigerated all night long.
By company policy we are not to risk a delay or an FAA fine just to do pre-departures. Hope this answers your question.
And, as others have pointed out, sometimes the catering is the last thing to arrive at the a/c. I've been on flights where we ended up with a delay waiting on the catering. In such cases, if I am flying #1, I go and explain to the f/c passengers why there were no pre-departures. Unless, I know what time the a/c got to the gate, I hesitate to use juice, water or ice that is in the carts. I've seen times when on first flight of the day, there were oj containers in the galley from the previous day that had been unrefrigerated all night long.
By company policy we are not to risk a delay or an FAA fine just to do pre-departures. Hope this answers your question.
It's simply amazing that a simple question by a flyer provokes such vitriol among some employees.
Flyertalk gets a thread like this every now and then - right now there's a month old thread with 242 replies on the very subject. My cynical side says the OP (Fang) is well aware of that one. B)
The Flyertalk threads usually contain the standard "predeparture drinks don't happen when catering is late." Rarely, however, do the AA employee posters there treat the passenger posters with such hatred. And the employee posters never attack the other employee posters. This place is truly special.
Ya know - the passengers in F can generally tell when catering is late and when it's not. We're sitting within a few feet of the front doors.
Most F passengers are ok with an absence of pre-departures when they can see the right hand side door open and the catering guys loading carts. But when we board at 30 minutes prior to departure and we can see the catering guys closing the door and then sit there for 30 minutes (or an hour, depending on delays) while we see (and hear) the FAs discussing next month's bid sheets or their last layover together - we wonder why we're sitting there thirsty.
Fortunately, on at least 95% of my flights where catering was done on time, I'm offered a drink and my coat (if any) is taken away by a smiling, friendly FA. I'm often offered my choice of beverage. In my experience, most AA FAs still treat the customers the right way even if they're angry with their employer about their pay or working conditions. In short, most all of them are consumate professionals. There's a few unprofessional bad apples, just like at any company. Luckily for me, I don't encounter them very often, despite over 200k flown miles a year on AA metal.
Being in LA, I often sit among celebs when I board and there's no shortage of special order pre-departure beverages. Not too long ago, I was on a flight with the group WAR as they flew a redeye to a gig. Some of them asked for red wine and before the door closed we had them singing Don't spill the wine as a predeparture song. Wouldn't have been the same if the FAs had refused their reasonable request for wine as their predeparture drink.
Flyertalk gets a thread like this every now and then - right now there's a month old thread with 242 replies on the very subject. My cynical side says the OP (Fang) is well aware of that one. B)
The Flyertalk threads usually contain the standard "predeparture drinks don't happen when catering is late." Rarely, however, do the AA employee posters there treat the passenger posters with such hatred. And the employee posters never attack the other employee posters. This place is truly special.
Ya know - the passengers in F can generally tell when catering is late and when it's not. We're sitting within a few feet of the front doors.
Most F passengers are ok with an absence of pre-departures when they can see the right hand side door open and the catering guys loading carts. But when we board at 30 minutes prior to departure and we can see the catering guys closing the door and then sit there for 30 minutes (or an hour, depending on delays) while we see (and hear) the FAs discussing next month's bid sheets or their last layover together - we wonder why we're sitting there thirsty.
Fortunately, on at least 95% of my flights where catering was done on time, I'm offered a drink and my coat (if any) is taken away by a smiling, friendly FA. I'm often offered my choice of beverage. In my experience, most AA FAs still treat the customers the right way even if they're angry with their employer about their pay or working conditions. In short, most all of them are consumate professionals. There's a few unprofessional bad apples, just like at any company. Luckily for me, I don't encounter them very often, despite over 200k flown miles a year on AA metal.
Being in LA, I often sit among celebs when I board and there's no shortage of special order pre-departure beverages. Not too long ago, I was on a flight with the group WAR as they flew a redeye to a gig. Some of them asked for red wine and before the door closed we had them singing Don't spill the wine as a predeparture song. Wouldn't have been the same if the FAs had refused their reasonable request for wine as their predeparture drink.
Fang,
I do appreciate your business.
I hope you continue to fly AA.
I did not mean to bring so much hostility out of it. I just read some posts and heard the excuses and frankly being an employee I know all the excuses and all the shortcuts around everything, and I just saw it like this.
Most people try to do the job that is expected of them. Then there are those that will look for any reason they can find to not do what is expected of them.
2 examples......short flight.....captain says it maybe bumpy. First question inevitably out of one of the FAs is.... Can we jsut stay in our jumpseats and not do the service?
long flight......2 services required......You are running low on soda/ice whatever. Oh well guess we won't do the second service since we don't have enough coke...etc.
See my argument is that noone is asking.....How can we make it work? They are saying...... let's not work.
I get that predeparture out .....because I know alot of you would like one. Alot of times it does take some juggling and jumping around the cabin to get it out there, but the minimal amount of service we have otherwise, this is one little bit of luxury I think that you should expect.
I do appreciate your business.
I hope you continue to fly AA.
I did not mean to bring so much hostility out of it. I just read some posts and heard the excuses and frankly being an employee I know all the excuses and all the shortcuts around everything, and I just saw it like this.
Most people try to do the job that is expected of them. Then there are those that will look for any reason they can find to not do what is expected of them.
2 examples......short flight.....captain says it maybe bumpy. First question inevitably out of one of the FAs is.... Can we jsut stay in our jumpseats and not do the service?
long flight......2 services required......You are running low on soda/ice whatever. Oh well guess we won't do the second service since we don't have enough coke...etc.
See my argument is that noone is asking.....How can we make it work? They are saying...... let's not work.
I get that predeparture out .....because I know alot of you would like one. Alot of times it does take some juggling and jumping around the cabin to get it out there, but the minimal amount of service we have otherwise, this is one little bit of luxury I think that you should expect.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,959
- 9,374
You obviously understand part of your job. So do I, both as a passenger and as a former business analyst & manager.
Why did I resign? Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you haven't... I chose to stop subsidizing the company at my family's expense. And I don't regret that one bit... Call it greed, but last year's bonus check from the new company was more than my first year's salary as an agent. Since 90% of my sales are priced in Euro's, this years will be even better...
So? Narrowbody turns were set at 35 minutes MOGT back in 1989.
Hmmm... Maybe Crandall had the right idea when he suggested replacing the galleys with a Coke machine?
Personally, I'd love to see a self-service option for drinks on AA. BA and QF already offer it -- they have a little self-serve fridge in the galley at the foot of the upper deck stairs on their 747-400's, stocked with soft drinks and water, and baskets full of snacks. They even offered this on a three hour flight between AKL and MEL, so it's not just on the long hauls.
OK, so aside from the "friend of a person my former neighbor's cousin's dentist" stories, how many actual cases are there of flight attendants being fined personally by the FAA?
I'm not talking about verbals or letters of violation -- how often are fines actually being assessed?
jimntx
Veteran
Actually, more often than previously. The FAA used to just issue fines to the company and when they decided that action was having no effect whatsoever in getting f/as to follow the FARs, they started fining individual f/as. Now last I heard it was for the very most egregious violations--allowing passengers to put carryon bags on the floor on bulkhead rows, knitting/reading/etc. on the jumpseat and not doing the required walkthroughs during flight. Not being in uniform--no wings or any sort of id to identify you as a crewmember kind of thing.
The most often fined incident--f/as doing non-safety related activities after the safety demo when we are supposed to be strapped into our jumpseats. However, from what I heard, it is not doing beverage service,etc., it is standing in the galley and talking during taxi.
This will make me sound like a lush. But if I am gonna shell out the first class service charge when I non-rev; I want to get at least 2 or 3 drinks. Without that pre-departure drink, it gets quite hard to get that third one without drinking like I am having a shot drinking contest.
And the funny thing is, I bet the FA's that seem to have the most issues with doing pre-departure service, complain the most when they are not given their pre-departure drings when they are non-reving and lucky enough to snag a first class seat.
And the funny thing is, I bet the FA's that seem to have the most issues with doing pre-departure service, complain the most when they are not given their pre-departure drings when they are non-reving and lucky enough to snag a first class seat.
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