Possible Restoration of Lost Wages for Flight Attendants

[MetalMover]

 
Every single time the AMT negotiators go to the mat it's about saying no, demanding more and working towards mediation, impasse, a cooling down period and then the a place some leaders believe it is the only place to get a deal...a Presidential Emergency Board...Anything outside of that is a failure.

I take it you're not a mechanic?

 

[MetalMover]

 
Every single time the AMT negotiators go to the mat it's about saying no, demanding more and working towards mediation, impasse, a cooling down period and then the a place some leaders believe it is the only place to get a deal...a Presidential Emergency Board...Anything outside of that is a failure.

Maybe because the mechanics have been screwed by the two all those years because we were always the minority? You think that may have anything to do with it?
 Are you a mechanic?

 

[bigjets]

Gee imagine that...an adversarial approach! When was the last time the TWU took an adversarial approach to anything the company was peddling?

The twu took an adversarial approach to line mechs, the approach of everything for Tulsa has now bitten the twu in the butt with the only ability to maintain representation for mechs at aa is by the association and giving the appearance of working with the IBT to keep out AMFA.

Let's pretent the twu didn't conspire with the IBT, that tells me the twu has an image problem with its own members.

 

[MetalMover]

The twu took an adversarial approach to line mechs, the approach of everything for Tulsa has now bitten the twu in the butt with the only ability to maintain representation for mechs at aa is by the association and giving the appearance of working with the IBT to keep out AMFA.

Let's pretent the twu didn't conspire with the IBT, that tells me the twu has an image problem with its own members.

Ahhhh. Interesting.....I wonder why NYer and WeAAsles are so pro TWU then? Could it be they are anti mechanic?

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Ahhhh. Interesting.....I wonder why NYer and WeAAsles are so pro TWU then? Could it be they are anti mechanic?

Bingo

 

[WeAAsles]

Bingo

Not as much pro TWU as I am anti BS. That's really where my mind is.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Every single time the AMT negotiators go to the mat it's about saying no, demanding more and working towards mediation, impasse, a cooling down period and then the a place some leaders believe it is the only place to get a deal...a Presidential Emergency Board...Anything outside of that is a failure.

If that was the case then how come the TWU International didn't even ask for a release? 
 
The fact is when I came on they had already been negotiating for over two years, (when I came into this industry negotiations lasted a few months and the contracts only lasted two years, now they have five year negotiations where they add another 6 years and instead of calling it an eleven year contract sellouts like NYer call it a six year deal) the Union had moved off their table position several times but the company didn't budge. So you're saying just keep moving towards the company and just accept what they are offering? The fact is they were offering a ZERO cost contract after huge concessions were given, in other words they weren't offering anything. On top of that the TWU, under Videtich and Little had already given the company hundreds of millions in productivity gains to the company for free. 
 
So again, your answer is if the company isn't moving just accept what they offer, again, why bother having a Union if you are going to do that? 

 

[NYer]

If that was the case then how come the TWU International didn't even ask for a release? --I guess these don't count.
 
March 9, 2009--"Leaders of the Transport Workers Union (TWU), representing more than 28,000 workers at American Airlines and American Eagle, announced today that unless all outstanding contract issues are settled at the two carriers by the end of the mediated discussions on March 8, union members will seek an immediate release from federal mediation."
 
April 12, 2010--"Mediation board to take up requests from American Airlines' unions...This week, the National Mediation Board will take up the requests of two American Airlines Inc. unions [TWU and the APFA] that want to be released from mediation and be allowed to strike."
 
March 11, 2011--"The Transport Workers Union has formally asked the National Mediation Board via letter Thursday to release it into a 30-day cooling-off period. That would start the strike clock ticking for American Airlines."
 
October 7, 2011--"Negotiators for American Airlines Inc. and its mechanics and related employees, represented by the Transport Workers Union met this week. They’ll meet again in November. What made this week’s meetings interesting is that there weren’t enough TWU negotiating team “aye” votes to pass a motion to ask the National Mediation Board on Friday to release the parties from mediation didn’t get enough votes to pass. The motion by the M&R negotiating committee actually received 10 votes in favor, to only seven in opposition. But four members were absent. The motion needed a majority, 11 votes, to pass. A second motion did pass, 12-5: To ask for a release from mediation as of Nov. 30 if Nov. 17-18 meetings don’t go anywhere."
 
November 29, 2011--AMR files for BK.
 
So again, your answer is if the company isn't moving just accept what they offer, again, why bother having a Union if you are going to do that? --I haven't said or written those words, but I guess that doesn't matter in the scope of your rhetoric. You keep going back to the same process of trying to soil the messenger when you can't seem to handle the message. The history is that for decades there has always been a villain to why your preferred methods haven't worked. You have to blame somebody or as has been made clear...you can blame everyone.
 
Bottom line, you haven't been able to deliver what you've preached and many people like the tough guy talk but they're starting to realize it is a hollow shell.

 

[Bob Owens]

 

 
So again, your answer is if the company isn't moving just accept what they offer, again, why bother having a Union if you are going to do that? --I haven't said or written those words, but I guess that doesn't matter in the scope of your rhetoric. You keep going back to the same process of trying to soil the messenger when you can't seem to handle the message. 

 

So what are you saying? What is the Message that you claim I cant handle? Are you saying the message is Unions have no power and should just accept what the company gives us?
 
You keep saying that we should not have voted No to the zero cost contracts that were brought back or even to the concession that were brought back, so what are you saying? There are only two other options. Either not to vote at all or Vote Yes. 
 
The fact is the company never moved off their zero cost contract and the International never moved to bring the process forward and despite your claims what I've said we need to do does work , has worked and continues to work, not every time but it does work at elevating workers living standards more often than rolling over for the company does. It hasn't happened with the TWU at AA because the International controlled the process and they refused to move forward, it hasn't been tried.  Over my time here even at AA we have seen the process move forward and as a result those who have shown they are willing to fight have remained at the top of the industry right up till Bankruptcy. The Pilots and the Flight attendants both moved through the process in the 90s, they both kicked the can down the road in the late 2000s because both were still at or near the top. 
 
 
WN Flight attendants don't earn 30% more than AA flight attendants, WN pilots don't earn 30% more than AA pilots, but WN mechanic do. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 

If that was the case then how come the TWU International didn't even ask for a release? --I guess these don't count.
 
March 9, 2009--"Leaders of the Transport Workers Union (TWU), representing more than 28,000 workers at American Airlines and American Eagle, announced today that unless all outstanding contract issues are settled at the two carriers by the end of the mediated discussions on March 8, union members will seek an immediate release from federal mediation."
 
April 12, 2010--"Mediation board to take up requests from American Airlines' unions...This week, the National Mediation Board will take up the requests of two American Airlines Inc. unions [TWU and the APFA] that want to be released from mediation and be allowed to strike."
 
March 11, 2011--"The Transport Workers Union has formally asked the National Mediation Board via letter Thursday to release it into a 30-day cooling-off period. That would start the strike clock ticking for American Airlines."
 
October 7, 2011--"Negotiators for American Airlines Inc. and its mechanics and related employees, represented by the Transport Workers Union met this week. They’ll meet again in November. What made this week’s meetings interesting is that there weren’t enough TWU negotiating team “aye” votes to pass a motion to ask the National Mediation Board on Friday to release the parties from mediation didn’t get enough votes to pass. The motion by the M&R negotiating committee actually received 10 votes in favor, to only seven in opposition. But four members were absent. The motion needed a majority, 11 votes, to pass. A second motion did pass, 12-5: To ask for a release from mediation as of Nov. 30 if Nov. 17-18 meetings don’t go anywhere."
 
November 29, 2011--AMR files for BK.
 
 

 

No they don't count and here is why.
 
March 9 2009, this was when the TWU and AA just started mediating, the NMB has never released the parties before they even started mediation. The question is why didn't the TWU request mediation in 2008 when after a year of negotiations they got nowhere and the contract became amendable? 
 
April 12, 2010  and March 11 2011, thats when Don told the Mediator that they are officially asking for a release (for internal Political reasons)  but they really don't want to be released. 
 
October 7, 2011. The TA was rejected in August of 2010, 14 Months prior, the strike vote had already been taken prior to rejection the International had everything they needed to move the process forward but they refused. Instead the International agreed to put us on ice till December of 2010. After 7 more months of delays the committee voted in July of 2011 to ask for a release, the vote passed. Little and Videtich wouldn't allow it, wanted a revote after he asked his buddy, Union buster from AIRCON who was now in the NMB come and tell us why we should not ask for a release, and there was enough FSCs in the room, and they had flipped Zimmerman so on the revote, the committee then decided not to ask for a release and to continue to delay and occasionally meet with the company. During this period Woodward was removed by his members, Zimmerman was removed by his members, and Gilboy was removed by his members, all the Presidents who were pushing for release we voted back in. If this had occurred a year earlier things may have been different. 
 
By the way, they never asked for release in the 15 months between when the ZERO cost TA  was rejected and AA filed for BK.  Like I said I know of no other time when in Sect 6 negotiations any Union at an airline waited that long to say they were going to ask to be released.
 
More spin, you know the process, you know that if you ask to be released before even starting mediation you will not get released, its never happened. Pure posturing.
 
The question is why did the TWU wait two years before requesting mediation? It made sense for the Pilots and Flight attendants to kick the can down the road because if they followed the process they likely would not make gains if they ended up in a PEB, they were already tops in the industry, including WN after language is factored in. You also know that without even sending an agreement back to the members that its not likely that the TA would release the parties after only spending at best 100 hours in face to face negotiations, especially if they are spread out over two years. You also know that typically when the NMB says that future mediation will probably not produce an agreement and they are breaking off mediation and a TA has been rejected that the criteria that has been applied in the past has been met and thats when the NMB will release the parties to the next step in the process and that is exactly what happened but the TWU instead requested not to be released and to continue meeting one week out of the month with the company until they filed for BK. 

 

[NYer]

So what are you saying? What is the Message that you claim I cant handle? Are you saying the message is Unions have no power and should just accept what the company gives us?
 
You keep saying that we should not have voted No to the zero cost contracts that were brought back or even to the concession that were brought back, so what are you saying? There are only two other options. Either not to vote at all or Vote Yes. --Where have I said that? It's pretty interesting how you continually try to get words I haven't spoken or written attributed as fact. I guess it's kind of flattering since it seems it's easier for you to try and discredit the person rather than the shared information. Thanks, man.
 
The fact is the company never moved off their zero cost contract and the International never moved to bring the process forward and despite your claims what I've said we need to do does work , has worked and continues to work, not every time but it does work at elevating workers living standards more often than rolling over for the company does. --Examples? Any time during the last two decades would suffice.
 
It hasn't happened with the TWU at AA because the International controlled the process and they refused to move forward, it hasn't been tried.  Over my time here even at AA we have seen the process move forward and as a result those who have shown they are willing to fight have remained at the top of the industry right up till Bankruptcy. The Pilots and the Flight attendants both moved through the process in the 90s, they both kicked the can down the road in the late 2000s because both were still at or near the top. --So have other groups within the TWU, with AA or at SWA. It's just maintenance that's been held down by the "conspiracies" you detail?
 
WN Flight attendants don't earn 30% more than AA flight attendants, WN pilots don't earn 30% more than AA pilots, but WN mechanic do. Aren't SWA mechanics TWU? They have the same International leadership we do, don't they? What's the difference?

 

[FWAAA]

Aren't SWA mechanics TWU? They have the same International leadership we do, don't they? What's the difference?

No, Southwest mechanics belong to AMFA, not the TWU. You're thinking of the WN flight attendants and non-mechanic ground personnel, which are represented by the TWU.

 

[NYer]

No they don't count and here is why. --They don't count? You say the International doesn't ask for a release....here you go.
 
March 9 2009, this was when the TWU and AA just started mediating, the NMB has never released the parties before they even started mediation. The question is why didn't the TWU request mediation in 2008 when after a year of negotiations they got nowhere and the contract became amendable? 
 
April 12, 2010  and March 11 2011, thats when Don told the Mediator that they are officially asking for a release (for internal Political reasons)  but they really don't want to be released. So they asked to be released but they really didn't want to be released. Gotcha'.
 
October 7, 2011. The TA was rejected in August of 2010, 14 Months prior, the strike vote had already been taken prior to rejection the International had everything they needed to move the process forward but they refused. Instead the International agreed to put us on ice till December of 2010. --In Mediation, it was the International that decided to put maintenance on ice? Gee, Bob...If the International controlled the mediation process so much why on Earth did you want them to file for mediation at all, never mind soon after negotiations began.
 
After 7 more months of delays the committee voted in July of 2011 to ask for a release, the vote passed. Little and Videtich wouldn't allow it, wanted a revote after he asked his buddy, Union buster from AIRCON who was now in the NMB come and tell us why we should not ask for a release, and there was enough FSCs in the room, and they had flipped Zimmerman so on the revote, the committee then decided not to ask for a release and to continue to delay and occasionally meet with the company. Hey, another guy to put on the conspiracy list...the Union Buster Aircon guy, from the NMB...Oh and Zimmerman is on the list too.
 
During this period Woodward was removed by his members, Zimmerman was removed by his members, and Gilboy was removed by his members, all the Presidents who were pushing for release we voted back in. If this had occurred a year earlier things may have been different. --Except that you believe the International has the power to stop a release by the NMB, so it would have been a moot point and you'd be incorrect that things may have been different since it 2010 they DID ask for a release (and again in April 2011). I guess it's also a small detail to share that any union can ask for a release, but the NMB is not obligated to give a release.
 
By the way, they never asked for release in the 15 months between when the ZERO cost TA  was rejected and AA filed for BK.  Like I said I know of no other time when in Sect 6 negotiations any Union at an airline waited that long to say they were going to ask to be released. That's also the time the NMB decided to leave everyone on ice in order they believed there was no attempt of movement. The APA and APFA were also cooled down by the lack of scheduled talks and neither group was given their release. It was quite apparent the NMB had not intention to give anyone a release. During those negotiations there were several requests made by multiple unions and none were released. It's also curious to think that you still believe a release in late 2011 would have yielded anything since the soon thereafter filed for BK.
 
More spin, you know the process, you know that if you ask to be released before even starting mediation you will not get released, its never happened. Pure posturing. --It also seemed evident we weren't getting released at anytime, since the request was made several times the the TWU, APFA and APA. None granted.
 
The question is why did the TWU wait two years before requesting mediation? It made sense for the Pilots and Flight attendants to kick the can down the road because if they followed the process they likely would not make gains if they ended up in a PEB, they were already tops in the industry, including WN after language is factored in. You also know that without even sending an agreement back to the members that its not likely that the TA would release the parties after only spending at best 100 hours in face to face negotiations, especially if they are spread out over two years. You also know that typically when the NMB says that future mediation will probably not produce an agreement and they are breaking off mediation and a TA has been rejected that the criteria that has been applied in the past has been met and thats when the NMB will release the parties to the next step in the process and that is exactly what happened but the TWU instead requested not to be released and to continue meeting one week out of the month with the company until they filed for BK. --When you hit a topic, you sure don't come off it even when the circumstances and results are so obvious. You are still calling for a release and a PEB against a company that shortly after filed for bankruptcy. How can you argue that, if left to follow your path, a PEB was going to supersede a bankruptcy. Wow.
 
BTW--You can't be ask to "not be released." As much fun as that idea might be for you.

 

[NYer]

No, Southwest mechanics belong to AMFA, not the TWU. You're thinking of the WN flight attendants and non-mechanic ground personnel, which are represented by the TWU.

 
 
Correct, my mistake.

 

[MetalMover]

 
 
Correct, my mistake.

Who by the way have made no effort to oust AMFA.