Pafca Or The Twu?

[flagshipdd]

For those of you who aren't aware, there is currently a representation election ongoing at AA dispatch between PAFCA and the TWU. Who's better? If you have experience with either group, now is your chance to voice your opinion. I'm looking for a civil debate that deals with pro's and con's of each group, so please, let's not get personal. Preferably line dispatchers who aren't involved in leadership of either group. You can read their opinions at :

PAFCA

TWU 542

 

[FlyStorms]

What ever happened with this? Hadn't seen anything in a while.

 

[DCT JVL]

The cards are out and they are going to count the votes on 12/01.

 

[Bob Owens]

For those of you who aren't aware, there is currently a representation election ongoing at AA dispatch between PAFCA and the TWU. Who's better? If you have experience with either group, now is your chance to voice your opinion. I'm looking for a civil debate that deals with pro's and con's of each group, so please, let's not get personal. Preferably line dispatchers who aren't involved in leadership of either group. You can read their opinions at :

PAFCA

TWU 542

Sorry to but in but it does not look like I'm interrupting anyone.

I read John Plowmans letter. Basically he addresses several issues, he answers all of them with ;"Its not my fault", "the members decided not the TWU" and "the other union might not be any better".

He didnt give any reasons why you should stay.

If he cant think of any reason to stay then why should you stay?

His letter pretty much says it all, no responsibility and no plan. I wish you guys the best of luck and hopefully when you are out of the TWU, and we join you, we can get all the Independant Airline Unions to work together. Maybe then airline union members can actually see and experience the power of unionism instead of just hearing about it.

Why would any union member want to stay with leaders who say that there is nothing we could do to prevent what just happened to us? What is to stop it from happening again? The fact is none of us has anything to lose by leaving the TWU.

 

[OnTheFence]

Bob,
You read one post on a situation that has been going on for 7 months.
You make it sound like it is a bad thing to do what the membership wants.
You know nothing about any of the issues in the letter with the exception
of maybe the TWA seniority issue. You know nothing about what is going
on in our office or anything about the people invovled. The guy who is
going to be interim President should Pafca win, is quoted in writing saying that
with reduced operations we wont need 25 dispatchers by 12/2004. "Why give up
anything else when we know we can give up heads the company will surely lay
off anyway". That does not reek of Unionism does it?
You read one letter and you know it all. Atleast you think you know enough to make
the post you did. You dont. There is more to this then one letter.
If you got an issue with the TWU and you want to join AMFA, so be it.
You dont really give a #### about us. You just hope the Pafca wins so the
AMFA election can ride on its coat-tails.
Maybe its time for you to mind your own business. We dont get into yours,
so stay out of ours.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
You read one post on a situation that has been going on for 7 months.
You make it sound like it is a bad thing to do what the membership wants.
You know nothing about any of the issues in the letter with the exception
of maybe the TWA seniority issue. You know nothing about what is going
on in our office or anything about the people invovled. The guy who is
going to be interim President should Pafca win, is quoted in writing saying that
with reduced operations we wont need 25 dispatchers by 12/2004. "Why give up
anything else when we know we can give up heads the company will surely lay
off anyway". That does not reek of Unionism does it?
You read one letter and you know it all. Atleast you think you know enough to make
the post you did. You dont. There is more to this then one letter.
If you got an issue with the TWU and you want to join AMFA, so be it.
You dont really give a #### about us. You just hope the Pafca wins so the
AMFA election can ride on its coat-tails.
Maybe its time for you to mind your own business. We dont get into yours,
so stay out of ours.

I'm sure that the PAFCA guys have their side of the story too. It would not be the first, or last, time that TWU officials lied to their members.

As far as you guys not butting into ours you are wrong again. Your President endorsed Sonny Halls actions removing officers from our Locals and he had his name and your local added to a letter posted in a NYC Labor Newspaper calling our Local and its members "The enemies of Labor".

So if your President can poke his nose into our business then dont cry foul when we do likewise. He made the first move, if he can attack us then why shouldnt I try to assist his opponents? The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right?

It will be nice to see your President get removed, but at least he was given a fair chance.



Just one question. Why does it make more sense to be in a union that represents anyone anywhere as long as they are willing to fork over two hours pay per month that is run by a bus driver than to try and get together with all the other dispatchers in the industry into a dispatchers union?

 

[OnTheFence]

The Pafca guys do have their side of the story. A story you dont know.
It is obvious that you have issues far beyond what our issues are and if
you feel that supporting an effort that you know nothing about, then you
are doing a disserivice to me and your other co-workers.
You/ve got over 10,000 mechanics at AA. Most likely over 50,000 mechanics
in the top 5-6 airlines. We have 200 dispatchers. You have something to
back you up when you sit across the table from a company that has the
worst record for employee relations. We have 200 dispatchers. Take a look
at the Pafca website. They represent less then 500 dispatchers. We total less
then 1000 in the top 5-6 airlines. Read the constitution of Pafca. Each local
is on their own. So put us all together and we are still a group of 200 going
against AA. Just because the TWU does not work for you, doesnt mean it does
not work for us. Going to Pafca could be suicide for us. We dont have the strengh
in numbers that the mechanics have. That is why it does not make sense to me.
We may very well have alot to lose if we leave the TWU.
These are the some of the things I will think about when I finally decide to cast my vote.

So I/ll ask. Do you really care about what happens to me, what my future holds in or out of the TWU, or are you posting just because the people leading it is the enemy of your enemy?

 

[Bob Owens]

The Pafca guys do have their side of the story. A story you dont know.
It is obvious that you have issues far beyond what our issues are and if
you feel that supporting an effort that you know nothing about, then you
are doing a disserivice to me and your other co-workers.
You/ve got over 10,000 mechanics at AA. Most likely over 50,000 mechanics
in the top 5-6 airlines. We have 200 dispatchers. You have something to
back you up when you sit across the table from a company that has the
worst record for employee relations. We have 200 dispatchers. Take a look
at the Pafca website. They represent less then 500 dispatchers. We total less
then 1000 in the top 5-6 airlines. Read the constitution of Pafca. Each local
is on their own. So put us all together and we are still a group of 200 going
against AA. Just because the TWU does not work for you, doesnt mean it does
not work for us. Going to Pafca could be suicide for us. We dont have the strengh
in numbers that the mechanics have. That is why it does not make sense to me.
We may very well have alot to lose if we leave the TWU.
These are the some of the things I will think about when I finally decide to cast my vote.

So I/ll ask. Do you really care about what happens to me, what my future holds in or out of the TWU, or are you posting just because the people leading it is the enemy of your enemy?

I'll admit that my knowledge of PAFCA and your issues is limited.

Its also obvious that you have no idea of what my goals are.

I'm against "business unionism". Business unionism is akin to company unionism in that both hurt the labor movement. I can support either Industrial unionism or craft unionism. Whatever fits your situation. I do not feel that the real battle should be between the two different types of real unionism, but between the unions and the company. While the TWU may talk about fighting the company have you ever seen or heard of any call by the union to fight the company? I havent. In fact with all the concessions that were put on us the union did not once voice or organize any sort of protest, in fact the only picketing they advocated was picketing calling for the government to aid the company. When the government gave the aid but resisted exending unemployment benifits to laid off airline workers and the airlines backstabbed the unions by refusing to support extended benifits the unions still would not go after the company.

The TWU is a classic example of a business union. They are only concerned with building up the Treasury. This Treasury is not to be used for the members but rather to provide high salaries and perks for those that Sonny Hall calls "the heart and soul" of the organization-International officers.

Tell me how you feel that being in the TWU, a small union that claims to be an industrial union (exactly what Industry do they specialize in?) that is spread out in many different industries helps your bargaining power? The fact is that the most highly paid union workers out there do not belong to super large Industrial unions, they tend to belong to small craft unions. Do you consider yourself an industrial worker or a professional with a craft?

Do you expect the TWU to threaten to pull all the subway workers, bus drivers, flight attendants , mechanics, wharehouse workers, security guards and scores of other workers in scores of other industries out on strike in support of your issues? Of course not, so how does affiliation, where all of these groups are competing within the union to gain control, and therefore bring their issues to the forefront help you? Especially when you consider that compared to other Industrial unions the TWU is rather small with high overhead costs due to the fact that we pay Sonny Hall , with 100,000 members more than the AFL-CIO pays John Sweeney with millions of members and other outrageous perks to other top union officials.. $2 of every members dues goes just for Sonny Halls Salary, another $10 goes just for the TWU's new digs on Broadway, another $3.45 for new cars for top union officers. It will be interesting to find out what other frivouluos indulgences that the International gives themselves on our dime once the new reporting rules kick in. How do any of those expenses help your bargaining position?

Exactly how does sharing in the burden of paying for useless frivalties for Sonny Hall help you guys? While you are right that my knowledge of your issues is limited you can bet that Sonny Halls is even more limited. Other than your dues how much do you think he really cares about you guys?

Numbers obviously arent everything, dont you guys make more than us? So despite the fact that our negotiators have 10,000 mechanics behind them we still make less than you guys. How did our strength in numbers help us? Our overall wages are the lowest in the industry, the OSMs and SRP concessoions waters down the value of our liscence, how would you guys like it if the company introduced a program where an unliscened dispatcher could do you job, as long as a liscenced dispatcher checked up on them every now and then? If they had such people and that increased the number of people doing your type of work would you consider the increased number something that enhanced your power or weakened it?

Have the other PAFCA represented Dispatchers given up as much as the AA TWU dispatchers? If they are still there then why would joining them be suicide?

How am I doing a disservice to my coworkers? Business unionism must be eradicated because it hurts all airline workers who have been its victims for the last twenty years. All they care about is dues to pay for their perks. Thats where your money goes and instead of fighting for you they will fight against you if your actions threaten that ever important dues flow. Despite the fact that we have been in constant decline for over 20 years when is the last time the TWU called upon its members to fight the company? You have to go all the way back to 1969! Other than lip service the TWU will not fight for you nor they will lead you into a fight, in fact they will do the opposite and then blame the membership. They will claim that the members lack the will to fight so their hands are tied. They are pathetic. How would they know if they havent made the call since 1969? The fact is that the members have never failed when the call was made. The leaders failed to make the call because they felt that they had nothing to gain by fighting, they got theirs already.

Have you ever sat down and figured out what we have lost over the last twenty years? I did, and it aint pretty. Despite the fact that the industry has radically transformed itself over the last twenty years unions like the TWU, IAM and IBT have not formulated any strategy to gain back any of what we lost.

If AA has such a lousy record then isnt that in itself an indictment of the lousy performance of your union for allowing them to develop such a record? Could it be that the company was able to act in such a way because they were exploiting the weakness of your union?

I care about how unions like the TWU have harmed all airline workers over the last twenty years. Right after getting into office I wrote to John Sweeney, Sonny Hall, Thomas Buffenbarger and Jimmy Hoffa. I shared with them my observations of what I've seen happen to this industry in the twenty years that I'd been in it. I highlighted why workers were trying to leave AFL-CIO unions and proposed a solution to the problem. I suggested that they consolidate all the ATDS in the industry into one union for the entire airline industry. It could either be a part of any one of the incumbant unions or be spun off into an entirely new entity, I left that open to them. Such a union would satify your "strength in numbers" ideology. It would be larger than TWU and its resorces would be concentrated at airports across the nation instead of spread out at airports, wharehouses, bus depots, rail yards, garages, hospitals etc.

In fact three years after this and without warning Sonny Halls Kangaroo court used this suggestion as evedence of Dual unionism and removed me from office even though in his written response Sonny admitted it was a good idea.

The fact is that the AFL-CIO unions that represent the various groups of airline workers have been in retreat for over 20 years. In the meantime they sit back and collect dues. They have convinced all of us that we have no power, and that what little protection there is can only be given by large, and in the case of the TWU, not so large, ineffective, beurocratic business (that claim to be Industrial) unions. These unions scarcly hide their cozyness with the companies that supply those RLA guaranteed dues, remember Koziateks retirement party? Remember how Carty said that he was giving Ed 7000 new dues paying members (TWA) as a retirement gift?

At what point would you be willing to try something else?

The fact is that the TWU offers you nothing but more of the same. Words and concessions. They have no more of a strategy now than they did 20 years ago. Not for you, not for us. Why should they change from a strategy that has benifited the organization with more and more members? If the vote for PAFCA fails they will claim that it vindicates their policies and return to the same failed strategy.

So yes I do care. I care because unlike Sonny Hall, Buffenbarger and Hoffa I am a part of the same industry as you. I tried to push for change that would help all of us from within, but that was rejected by those who had the power to make change from within. Now its up to the rank and file. We do not have the power to change the TWU from within, we can either support whatever they decide is best for us, although they are not willing to accept similar conditions for themselves or go to an organization that promises to do as we ask. The leadership of the union has spoken, they claim that the status quo is acceptable and we must support their failed policies. Now its up to us. We can accept the status quo or take a chance and try something new. Something that can offer us opportunities as well as risk. If you guys all end up in PAFCA and most of us in AMFA and most of the baggage handlers in the AGW we can form an alliance of airline unions that will not be compromized by promises to fund AMTRACK or extended mass transit or scores of issues outside of ours unless WE decide to do so. These unions will not be run by a Bus driver or a machinist or a truck driver lawyer, they will all be headed by and accountable only to the airline workers that they came from.

At this point, really, why not give hope a chance?

 

[OnTheFence]

You raise some interesting points and it is very obvious to me that your
issues and goals are different then ours. I/ll consider all you wrote when I vote.

To answer one of your questions.. United Pafca, in BK, lost as much as we did.
As for Delta Pafca, that is yet to be seen. I/m sure they are next after the pilots.

Good luck to us all.

 

[Bob Owens]

You raise some interesting points and it is very obvious to me that your
issues and goals are different then ours. I/ll consider all you wrote when I vote.

To answer one of your questions.. United Pafca, in BK, lost as much as we did.
As for Delta Pafca, that is yet to be seen. I/m sure they are next after the pilots.

Good luck to us all.

I want to see my profession remain remunerative, not just be a "job".

A "job" can be had anywhere without the responsiblities that working in this industry requires.

I recognize that in order to get that I have to be in a union, a union that shares the same goals.

The TWU does not.

Other than classification how do we differ?

 

[Checking it Out]

TWU wins election, The members have made their choice, Pafca lost and would not debate the TWU before ballots were sent out!!!! The Members made the Smart Choice!!!!!!!

 

[Checking it Out]

DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS,



As you know, yesterday the NMB confirmed by majority vote that the Transport Workers Union and Local 542 will continue as the bargaining representative for the American Airlines Dispatchers and Operation Specialists. During this election we have learned that many members have disagreements with the Union. Now that the election is over, I ask that each and every member put those disagreements behind us and work together to build a stronger union.



Locally, we’ve begun to develop the skill and experience that will make it possible for us to work together when confronted with major obstacles in the future. In short, this Local is committed to building total unity. Our destiny is and has always been in our own hands. Through understanding and the right application of capacity, we can continue to improve the representation we currently have, but those improvements won’t happen unless we all collectively work on those improvements.



As founding President of the TWU, Mike Quill said “Whatever the problem, your efforts will be crowned with success only if your union is sound and united. It takes planning, patience, vigilance, and determination to win any struggle, regardless of the arena. Above all else, the membership must wholeheartedly believe in its organization and the role it can play in building a better world. We have learned that a labor union is not a gambling table; it is not a bingo game where you hit the jackpot once in a lifetime. Membership in a union is a way of life. Dues payment is not enough. You must attend meetings, prepare yourself for leadership…you must invest part of yourself.â€￾

Before you think I’m using this occasion to view things through dark glasses, let me say a few words in praise of an ancient and honorable American election tradition – the tradition of the good loser and the gracious winner. There are so many places in the world where peaceful elections are virtually impossible, that it is only fair to salute the good temper, good faith and good judgment of winners and losers alike. We have a great respect in this union for the voice of the people and ask that all of you join together with us, collectively as we move forward. Thank you.

Sincerely and Fraternally Yours,

John E. Plowman

President

 

[AA Dispatch]

CIO...

A few comments on your post.

During this election we have learned that many members have disagreements with the Union. Now that the election is over, I ask that each and every member put those disagreements behind us and work together to build a stronger union.

The TWU learned only during the election that there were disagreements? And now that the election is over, we're supposed to sweep them under the carpet, and pretend they don't exist?

Locally, we’ve begun to develop the skill and experience that will make it possible for us to work together when confronted with major obstacles in the future.

I thought the whole point in voting for the TWU was their wealth of experience and skill. Now they're admitting that they've just begun?

We have a great respect in this union for the voice of the people...

Kind of contradicts the first paragraph, doesn't it.

My bet is these are not even John Plowman's words. They writing style is not his. More TWU advantage?

This was not an overwhelming TWU victory. An 11 vote swing the other way and the TWU would be protesting the vote and filing injunctions. If the TWU does not change, the same disagreements that were there before will be there in the future. Will they change? If not, we could be going down this road again in the future...

 

[Bob Owens]

CIO...

A few comments on your post.



The TWU learned only during the election that there were disagreements? And now that the election is over, we're supposed to sweep them under the carpet, and pretend they don't exist?



I thought the whole point in voting for the TWU was their wealth of experience and skill. Now they're admitting that they've just begun?



Kind of contradicts the first paragraph, doesn't it.

My bet is these are not even John Plowman's words. They writing style is not his. More TWU advantage?

This was not an overwhelming TWU victory. An 11 vote swing the other way and the TWU would be protesting the vote and filing injunctions. If the TWU does not change, the same disagreements that were there before will be there in the future. Will they change? If not, we could be going down this road again in the future...

362 more days till you can file again.

The TWU will not change, Plowman basically said nothing.

What exactly does he plan on changing? Sounds like a lot of canned responses and phrases, unity, solidarity, way of life, blah, blah, blah. Exactly what does he plan to do to adress the issues such as the lack of Democracy, sell out contracts etc?

Let me guess, "Pull together-win together" right?

Its us against the other airlines workers, but we can beat them to the lowest wage? But wait if the other airlines workers are in the AFL-CIO are they our competitors or our brothers?

 

[skycruiser]

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