One more reason for seniority-based system

[SkyRat]

"Sorry dude but it's all about the choices that we make in LIFE!"
I wish such was always the case...I'd still be flying airplanes with Smiles on them.

Exactly

So don't take it against me! We are all in this together and once we realize that, we can move fwd and get a REAL contract. All the radical Easties are doing is delaying that.

The Nic award is going to stand, and you all know it. But your MEC wants to keep on wasting time and $$$.

Sad

 

[nostradamus]

Exactly

So don't take it against me! We are all in this together and once we realize that, we can move fwd and get a REAL contract. All the radical Easties are doing is delaying that.

The Nic award is going to stand, and you all know it. But your MEC wants to keep on wasting time and $$$.

Sad

"Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder."
-- George Washington

 

[EastUS]

Exactly

So don't take it against me! We are all in this together and once we realize that, we can move fwd and get a REAL contract. All the radical Easties are doing is delaying that.

The Nic award is going to stand, and you all know it. But your MEC wants to keep on wasting time and $$$.

Sad

Given the seniority atrocity...I've serious difficulty imagining any contract being offered that will offer enough to vote for. I believe that you're assignment of "radical" isn't accurate at all = Pretty much everyone out here's fully disgusted, not merely some minority of "radical" thinkers.

"The Nic award is going to stand, and you all know it."
What I do know is that nothing that is any process of man,....is actually certain in this world.

 

[Mr Furlough]

Let's see if I get this straight Mr. Furlough...

Hmmm, I am a junior Captain on the West, have been flying for 20 years Total. Ok, I have to admit that some Easties have been flying for what? 50-60-70 years?

Now, I have flown heavies all over the world, over 15K hours TT, Check Airmen for previous airline, blah blah blah...

But decided to come to AWA 10 years ago because I loved what I've had heard about the place, even thought it was not that good. Had ZERO respect for UAL, did NOT give a #### to work for SkyNazis, did NOT care to do 6-8 legs a day ala SW, etc.

I am as experienced and frigging sharp or MORE than any Eastie that used to be a Captain, and has been an FO for years now. I just made a different choice. And because of that I AM going to be senior to any 1987+ EASTIE!

Sorry dude but it's all about the choices that we make in LIFE!

GL

Captain Rat,

Thank you for your resume. And congrats on your ten years.

I believe that your post, or should I say rant, is that since you have been flying, where ever, for twenty whole years, and ten for AWA you have earned passage before everyone with more years with U and more years flying. And somehow, your advancing that the easties are looking to do so on your back....while the Nicolaus award has you on ours. But THAT'S OK?!?! Perhaps we should place our most junior ahead of you and let you try that on for size?

But now seriously. No one wants to place more junior pilots ahead of you. Nor does anyone want to bump you from your Captain's seat. All kidding aside, you should retain your position in this process. You've clearly earned it, done your time, and belong there.

What is troubling is the dream world some get from this ridicules award. And the intensity in which they cling to it. The Nicolau Award is Disneyland for the pilots of AWA. It may stand as you suggested. You just might find yourself starting over-pulling the gear for a 4 year guy at SWA. As that too is a reality of this business.

I would think that getting this award thrown out would be an attractive alternative for a guy in your position.

 

[markkus757]

You guys in the east still don't get it. This is a new company your old senority doesn't mean anything more than placing you on the new list. You can't say that you have worked 20 years at the OLD US and combine it with the new US. They are two different companies. Mr. Furlough, all I am saying inregards to choices is that you seem to think theat everyone is forced to be here. You criticize others that made better choices than others. Sounds like jealousy to me. :down:

 

[wopr21]

You guys in the east still don't get it. This is a new company your old senority doesn't mean anything more than placing you on the new list. You can't say that you have worked 20 years at the OLD US and combine it with the new US. They are two different companies. Mr. Furlough, all I am saying inregards to choices is that you seem to think theat everyone is forced to be here. You criticize others that made better choices than others. Sounds like jealousy to me. :down:

If its a new airline , then lets all start out at year one like a new hire class and arrange the class by age.

wopr21

 

[AWA320]

You guys in the east still don't get it. This is a new company your old senority doesn't mean anything more than placing you on the new list. You can't say that you have worked 20 years at the OLD US and combine it with the new US. They are two different companies. Mr. Furlough, all I am saying inregards to choices is that you seem to think theat everyone is forced to be here. You criticize others that made better choices than others. Sounds like jealousy to me. :down:

Here is the very real problem from what I have noticed thus far. Many seem to confuse longetivity with seniority!!! Now I've asked this question to my east counterparts and I see how they get confused. If you look at a pilot on the EAST list with 18 years he/she is at the very bottom of that list or furloughed. Now the operative word here is BOTTOM. Now when we combine the new list said pilot with 18yrs shoud be in the very same position, the BOTTOM. What these 18 yr pilots wish to do is be placed on the combined list at the 18 year point this stapleing everyone whith less LONGETIVITY below them. That's called WINDFALL!!

Now the Nic award saw this and made adjustments accordingly which is why a west pilot who was on the BOTTOM of the AWA list is still on the BOTTOM of the combined list. It matters not that one pilot had 3 months or 18 years BOTTOM STILL MEANS BOTTOM.

Stop confusing longetivity with seniority and the light bulbs should come on. If they don't then it's really a matter of wanting someone else to pay their price for them...

 

[john john]

Uh, because you naive fools keep referring to a combined list as a "seniority list"? If so, would not the list be based on "seniority" and not slotting?

If you keep doing that, we can always draw up a list based on age.

Have a good day, tadpole.

What not alphabetical order better yet merit

 

[wopr21]

Here is the very real problem from what I have noticed thus far. Many seem to confuse longetivity with seniority!!! Now I've asked this question to my east counterparts and I see how they get confused. If you look at a pilot on the EAST list with 18 years he/she is at the very bottom of that list or furloughed. Now the operative word here is BOTTOM. Now when we combine the new list said pilot with 18yrs shoud be in the very same position, the BOTTOM. What these 18 yr pilots wish to do is be placed on the combined list at the 18 year point this stapleing everyone whith less LONGETIVITY below them. That's called WINDFALL!!

Now the Nic award saw this and made adjustments accordingly which is why a west pilot who was on the BOTTOM of the AWA list is still on the BOTTOM of the combined list. It matters not that one pilot had 3 months or 18 years BOTTOM STILL MEANS BOTTOM.

Stop confusing longetivity with seniority and the light bulbs should come on. If they don't then it's really a matter of wanting someone else to pay their price for them...

I agree with you on the fact that "today" is where everyone is, bottom AWA and bottom AAA. I still implore you to look at how things play out as the years go on. But for some reason you keep denying yourself looking at the list with a white bulb instead of a black bulb. In my opinion Longevity and seniority are one in the same if you are hired in the same job. But If you then go to a different department you might have a different DOH but your longevity is the same. Our position, bases and equipment we fly are based on seniority. I believe that is the way its done out west, too. Correct me if I am wrong. I would like to keep it that way. I have no desire to bump you down and off your equipment and base, that is what you have earned at AWA. I do have a problem with a 98 guy going ahead of me in a few years when I have 21 years+. Is that fair in your eyes? Looks like a WINDFALL to me.


Maybe you should try a halogen, they are 10 times as bright.

wopr21

 

[ussnark]

If its a new airline , then lets all start out at year one like a new hire class and arrange the class by age.

Oh boy, that is positively evil. Nicely done, evil as it is, using their own argument against them. Well done.

Perception:

Two carriers, each, one step away from falling into a running wood chipper, fighting over what constitutes "seniority" and along comes a gnu guy (wopr21) who sees through all the arguments (bovine fertilizer) and comes up with an ALPA approved seniority list. (How were you "ordered" in each new-hire class? By age, for those who forgot) That way, we could all be an initial class.

Excellent, sir. and that would have the side benefit of pissing darn near everyone off while keeping the experience levels at the points where they need to be.

Then, no fences or conditions. Everyone can bid whatever blows their skirt up and their new seniority can hold.

Have you considered a "management" position?

 

[767jetz]

(How were you "ordered" in each new-hire class? By age, for those who forgot)

Actually, thanks to several law suits, new hire status based on age was determined by several courts as age discrimination. (don't ask me which courts...)

So now many use the lowest social security number. Some even do it by lottery within each class. Now THAT would be interesting... throw your name in a hat and start picking 'em out!

 

[USA320Pilot]

I believe both MEC's should ask the company for a release from the TA requirement to negotiate a joint contract. Why? Each pilot group could keep their pre-merger attrition based career expectation, each pilot group could live under their present contract and then enter into Section VI negotiations, which could help the growing toxic relationship to somewhat subside.

We now have a MEC stalemate and unless something changes, the company will continue to incrementally fail. Then in maybe 10 years when most of the East pilots are retired those remaining could deal with another bankruptcy.

Regards,

USA320pilot

 

[AWA320]

I believe both MEC's should ask the company for a release from the TA requirement to negotiate a joint contract. Why? Each pilot group could keep their pre-merger attrition based career expectation, each pilot group could live under their present contract and then enter into Section VI negotiations, which could help the growing toxic relationship to somewhat subside.

We now have a MEC stalemate and unless something changes, the company will continue to incrementally fail. Then in maybe 10 years when most of the East pilots are retired those remaining could deal with another bankruptcy.

Regards,

USA320pilot

Grasping for straws USA320!! You are reminding me of a golfer who against better judgement shoots for the green 300yds away when he hit water he then asks for a mulligan!! At some point you are going to have to take responsibility for you actions...

 

[BoeingBoy]

Grasping for straws USA320!!

Solving a problem with three factors....

W is a somewhat unknown constant: probably 330, 350, or 787
X is a variable between 0 and 600+
Y is a linearly decreasing variable, beginning at either 8.25 or 13.25

The problem is how to cause X to equal zero until Y equals 0, with success ensuring that W equals it's desired value sooner rather than later.

Jim

 

[ussnark]

Solving a problem with three factors....

W is a somewhat unknown constant: probably 330, 350, or 787
X is a variable between 0 and 600+
Y is a linearly decreasing variable, beginning at either 8.25 or 13.25

The problem is how to cause X to equal zero until Y equals 0, with success ensuring that W equals it's desired value sooner rather than later.

Jim

Jim,

You have wa-a-ay too much time on your hands. YMHO.

and, actually, Y goes to zero as soon as X changes from 60 and W sheds its superposition and acquires a positive value on 19/06/07, generally thought to be ?.