Oil prices going to the century mark

[FA Mikey]

Yeah Mikey, they were all atheists. The problem you have with religion is so single agenda driven that you're trying rewrite history to suit your needs. Where did you dig all this tripe up from the Micheal Moore book of US History?

I have no problem with religion. I just don't as you do rewrite history in your own image. Then shove your beliefs on to others. The great thing about being an American is you can worship as you choose and be free of government intervention.

Look, you can dig up all the quotes you want. Point is, they were more Christian than they were any other religion. Also, they didn't have to deal with things like abortion and gay marriage.

You can keep wishing it, but facts will not change. But what does it matter? The founders were very careful to protect religion and politics by keeping them separate.

As for abortion, it was legal in the US up until the 1800s. The laws against were mainly motivated safety of the procedure. Not by ethical concerns about abortion itself.

If you honestly think having some happy go lucky limp wrists running this country, is going to make things all better for you and everybody will be happy - you're in for a big surprise.

I am sure this was your weak idea for some kind of slam. Unfortunately, like your inability to reason with actual facts, says it all.

 

[TWskyliner]

I have no problem with religion. I just don't as you do rewrite history in your own image. Then shove your beliefs on to others. The great thing about being an American is you can worship as you choose and be free of government intervention.
You can keep wishing it, but facts will not change. But what does it matter? The founders were very careful to protect religion and politics by keeping them separate.

As for abortion, it was legal in the US up until the 1800s. The laws against were mainly motivated safety of the procedure. Not by ethical concerns about abortion itself.
I am sure this was your weak idea for some kind of slam. Unfortunately, like your inability to reason with actual facts, says it all.

Mikey, You're in a no win situation with Vort. You have intellect on your side. Sometimes you just can't educate stupid.

 

[Vortilon]

Guess now we win both elections and polls. Geez, when is the last time anyone lost 26 seats in the house? I'm to tired to look it up.

I am thinking that the republican morality BS from 2000/2004 came back and bit you boys in the arse. I love poetic justice.

Votes are not all in just yet Garfy....

 

[Vortilon]

I have no problem with religion. I just don't as you do rewrite history in your own image. Then shove your beliefs on to others. The great thing about being an American is you can worship as you choose and be free of government intervention.
You can keep wishing it, but facts will not change. But what does it matter? The founders were very careful to protect religion and politics by keeping them separate.

As for abortion, it was legal in the US up until the 1800s. The laws against were mainly motivated safety of the procedure. Not by ethical concerns about abortion itself.
I am sure this was your weak idea for some kind of slam. Unfortunately, like your inability to reason with actual facts, says it all.

You have no problem with religion, just some people that don't share your beliefs that are identified as religious right etc.. Then you come out calling names and making accusations about them.

Hey, I found an interesting bit on our founding fathers and Christianity - check it out: http://www.lawandliberty.org/founders.htm
It kinda wipes the varnish off your taken out of context bits on what they had to say.

Your facts on the history of abortion in America are pertinant how?

Inability to reason? I'll match wits with you anytime.

 

[Vortilon]

Mikey, You're in a no win situation with Vort. You have intellect on your side. Sometimes you just can't educate stupid.

Oh thats nice, another empty insult.
This is a perfect example of what I said earlier with the name calling. The only thing she left out was the bit about how she is a victim.

 

[FA Mikey]

You have no problem with religion, just some people that don't share your beliefs that are identified as religious right etc.. Then you come out calling names and making accusations about them.

Care to elaborate?

Hey, I found an interesting bit on our founding fathers and Christianity - check it out: http://www.lawandliberty.org/founders.htm
It kinda wipes the varnish off your taken out of context bits on what they had to say.

Interesting reading. In the second paragraph you can tell you are in for a one sided treat by this quote. "There are many good articles and books written on this subject, as well as many that are disgusting examples of anti-intellectual drivel."

The author freely admits Likewise, the Christian must be careful when asserting that the various founding fathers, possessed of individual and diverse religious beliefs, collectively purposed to create an overtly Christian nation. Granted, there is strong correlation to suggest such an intent but, in logic, as well as history, correlation does not equal causation. In my mind, however, it matters less what they intended than what they accomplished. Certainly, the structural framework of self-governance created by the founders permits a Christian people to order their relationships in accordance with biblical mandates, just as it permits non-Christians to order their relationships without overtly "theological" implications.

He goes to great lengths to link his assertions of his life today, to the history of the nation. Its an extremely weak argument, The facts stand as I stated before and in the writings of the founders and of the historical documents and laws of this country.

I really do not understand the desire and importance for some people to link religion and politics. In this case Christianity and the US government. I would think the separation of the two, would be in the best of intreasts in a free nation. The only reason to link the two is to create some sort of theocracy. And as the history of the world has shown us time and again. They are dangerous and deadly to outsiders and those the establishment feels threatened by. Your hatred of Islam should show you point blank, religion and politics are awful bed fellows.

What I posted earlier was some of the writing by the founding fathers. As well as pointed out there beliefs as freemasons. Freemasonry was and is considered as a powerful force for religious freedom and practiced the concept of separation of religion and organization. And the precursor to separation of church and state.

Your facts on the history of abortion in America are pertinant how?

Youbrought it up in a previous post. FYI, I am just responing to your inaccuricies. I havent made any post outside what has already been said.

Inability to reason? I'll match wits with you anytime.

ok

 

[FA Mikey]

Oh thats nice, another empty insult.
This is a perfect example of what I said earlier with the name calling. The only thing she left out was the bit about how she is a victim.

Pot meet kettle. What would you call these statements, testimonials?

Inability to reason? I'll match wits with you anytime.

If you honestly think having some happy go lucky limp wrists running this country

Where did you dig all this tripe up from the Micheal Moore book of US History?

So don't try and compare MODERN Christians to todays scourge on earth muslims.

When you make disparaging remarks to people and beliefs, be prepared to receive some in return.

 

[jimntx]

Two quotes that apply to this discussion...

"When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag carrying a cross." (Sinclair Lewis)

And, as a high-church Episcopalian (Anglican/B-team Catholic), my all-time personal favorite--
"Having read the teachings of Jesus Christ, I could very easily have been a Christian if I had not met so many of them." (Mohandas Gandhi)

A t-shirt spotted the other day...
BUSH: God's way of proving that Intelligent Design is Crap

 

[Ed Norton]

And here I thought this topic was about oil prices!

Okay, how about this. When the Ottoman Turks controlled what is today Iraq, they had the common sense not to interfere with the diferent sects and ethnic groups. Having sided with Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, The Ottoman Empire collapsed after WW1. To make a long story short, the British took over they drew lines on a map and created Iraq. They then installed a (Saudi) puppet ruler, Faisal bin Husayn in 1921 and placed Sunnis in key government posts. In exchange for a fee Faisal ceded the vast Iraqui oil fields to British Petroleum, a French oil company and of course Standard Oil. Even then it was known that Iraq sat on a huge oil reserve. If this oil was pumped out of the ground it would create a glut and world oil prices would drop. The oil companies then agreed to cap most of the oil production and share a few small fields amongst themselves.
Jump a few decades and we have Sadam Hussein in power. He was placed there by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, as a reward for doing dirty work for us there for many years. We supplied him with weapons to fight Iran. We provided weapons of mass destructions and intelligence so he could use them where they would be most effective. As long as Sadam played ball he was our buddy. After tiring of Kuwait vertically drilling oil out of Iraq, Saddam invaded Kuwait in August 1990. He did this after he was assurd by April Glaspie, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq at the time, "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America." We all know what hapened next.
Why are we in Iraq today? It is not because Saddam killed his own people, the U.S. government could care less about that. We have supported murdering tyrants for decades. It wasn't the weapons of mass destruction which we knew he had because we sold them to him. It is surely not the asinine argument that "if we fight the (so called) terrorists over there they won't come over here,"... the southern border is wide open.
Saddam's biggest sin was that he messed with the oil market. He kept raising and lowering supply which upset the Saudis and also reduced profits for the oil companies.
Never mind the pre-election drop in gas prices. We've had record high gas prices at the pumps and record high profits for the oil companies and our children are dying for the corporate empire. :down: :down:
Why are we bogged down in Iraq? For the oil, not to increase the output but to reduce it and control its price. :down: :down:

 

[Ed Norton]

I guess I'll jump into this "religion" argument.
The Pilgrims are given the credit for being the early settlers of our country. What many don't know was that the Pilgrims came here on a busines venture. Having received a royal charter for the "Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England". As we all know, the Pilgrims were very set in their puritanical ways, which even then caused internal dissent. One of these early dissenters was Roger Williams. Williams got tired of the puritanical crap, bought some land from the Narragansett and co-founded Rhode Island. Roger Williams was an early proponent of church/state separation. He believed thegovernment should not punish religious infraction. He also believed people should have freedom of opinion on religious matters.
If we look at the Declaration of Indepencence, the inference to religion or Christianity is vague. We find dubious words like providence, creator, natures God, as many of these founding fathers were Masons.
The Constitution establishes freedom of religion, not from religion. In other words the government can't force you to be Anglican, Baptist or Catholic.
To say that this nation was founded on Judeo/Christian ideals is not a stretch. After all, aren't the ten commandments the basis for all common and codefied law? The Constitution through the first ammendment protects the practice of all religion, christian or not.

 

[777 fixer]

Jump a few decades and we have Sadam Hussein in power. He was placed there by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, as a reward for doing dirty work for us there for many years. We supplied him with weapons to fight Iran.

This proves my previous point that Ed Norton will pretty much buy into anything as long as it conforms to his world view and does not require that much thought. Ed, care to back up your claim that Saddam was installed by the CIA? And please don't use infowars or prison planet as a source. Your comment about supplying weapons to Iraq to fight the Iranians is a half truth; actually it's more like 1/8 of a truth. Most of Saddam armaments came the USSR and France. We did not sell Saddam fighters, tanks, APC's, bombers, SAM systems, artillery etc. We did sell him some utility helicopters along with providing him satellite imagery of Iranian positions. However at the end of the day the vast majority of his weapons had Made in the USSR or France stamped on them.

 

[KCFlyer]

This proves my previous point that Ed Norton will pretty much buy into anything as long as it conforms to his world view and does not require that much thought. Ed, care to back up your claim that Saddam was installed by the CIA? And please don't use infowars or prison planet as a source. Your comment about supplying weapons to Iraq to fight the Iranians is a half truth; actually it's more like 1/8 of a truth. Most of Saddam armaments came the USSR and France. We did not sell Saddam fighters, tanks, APC's, bombers, SAM systems, artillery etc. We did sell him some utility helicopters along with providing him satellite imagery of Iranian positions. However at the end of the day the vast majority of his weapons had Made in the USSR or France stamped on them.

But....we also supplied him with the one thing we attacked him for...chemical weapons.

 

[777 fixer]

But....we also supplied him with the one thing we attacked him for...chemical weapons.

So which chemical weapons out of US stockpiles did we sell him?

 

[Garfield1966]

Not sure about the heavy armor, but we sure as heck gave him a whole lot of other stuff right up untill he invaded Kuwait.

U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup

 

[KCFlyer]

So which chemical weapons out of US stockpiles did we sell him?

Try a google search of "Reagan" and "Hussein" and "chemical". You can read the ones you like and dismiss the ones you don't like...but keep a tally of what you're accepting and what you're rejecting. You'll find an awful lot of hits.