Now What?

[ezchkin]

As opposed to what?

The IBT and their appointed Business Agents?

As for District 141, the issue hasn't been resolved, but at least they HAD the election. If the charges prove warranted it will be overturned. You certainly don't want to get into a debate about election fraud do you? The Local 986 Business Agent for UAL mechanics was just caught in this very thing.

Because they HAD the election is the reason why the DOL became involved. No, I'm not interested in debating election fraud. I'm only interested in everyones experiences and thoughts about different unions. Many of us have that choice to make next year. I'm interested in the information about the local 986 business agent. Could you post the link for the court file? Thx!

Its also again worth noting, the UAL mechanics would NOT be part of District 141. We will have our own District and Locals

[color="#000080"][/color]You also mentioned in another post that you guys could write your own bylaws and change the laws you don't like. So, am I understanding correctly that you guys think the current IAM bylaws may not be the most democratic?
That said, if you truly wish to engage in a "sins of one is a sins of all" discussions .... well lets just say the IBTs history is a "tad" more storied than the IAM. Do as you will.

PS: The attendance LOA the IBT signed with UAL, which you seem so giddy about, is a concern of those of us who actually live under it. The company didn't just surrender ALL attendance discipline and receive nothing in return. Additionally, if you work for UAL, you know full well the company has never needed a LOA to remove discipline, oh and just so you know, this attendance LOA was signed WITHOUT a membership vote.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on your attendance. I didn't know the mechs got a new attendance policy. I'm referring to the letter put out that as of last July 31st, your job group had all discipline removed for attendance. This in contrast to ramp, pce, who converted from levels to points. Where we use to have 3 occurences in a year equals 1 level with 5 levels for termination, we now have 1 point per occurence with 5 points termination. So, if you have a new attendance program that never went to a vote, could you share the details? It would be another comparison between the IBT and IAM that would be helpful for when the big decision day comes.

 

[ezchkin]

ThirdSeatHero,

"Its also again worth noting, the UAL mechanics would NOT be part of District 141. We will have our own District and Locals"

Aren't all districts governed by the Grand Lodge? Are you implying District 141 may not be as trustworthy as another District? They are all IAM.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Because they HAD the election is the reason why the DOL became involved. No, I'm not interested in debating election fraud. I'm only interested in everyones experiences and thoughts about different unions. Many of us have that choice to make next year. I'm interested in the information about the local 986 business agent. Could you post the link for the court file? Thx

Elections are the point I was trying to emphasize, under the IBT our BAs (and yours should you choose IBT) are appointed, there is no election.

Here is the information you requested: 986 Election Protest

Under the IAM, the membership would at least have the ability to remove an individual like this.

You also mentioned in another post that you guys could write your own bylaws and change the laws you don't like. So, am I understanding correctly that you guys think the current IAM bylaws may not be the most democratic?

The writing of our own District Bylaws stem from our past with the IAM. District 141, and later District 141-M, were not crafted to focus on maintenance issues. Our new District Bylaws will provide that focus. As to your question on democracy, all Districts have differences in the way they handle elections and appointments, we took the best of those and combined them in our Bylaws to provide both democracy and accountability in electing our District Officers and Representatives.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on your attendance. I didn't know the mechs got a new attendance policy. I'm referring to the letter put out that as of last July 31st, your job group had all discipline removed for attendance. This in contrast to ramp, pce, who converted from levels to points. Where we use to have 3 occurences in a year equals 1 level with 5 levels for termination, we now have 1 point per occurence with 5 points termination. So, if you have a new attendance program that never went to a vote, could you share the details? It would be another comparison between the IBT and IAM that would be helpful for when the big decision day comes

The letter you are refering to is indeed the LOA I was speaking of.

The company removed all attendance related discipline from the mechanics files.

As before, the problem remains we have yet to see the new policy. Supposedly due out Oct 1st.

The company, if this was just a "good will" gesture as the IBT is trying to paint it, would not need a signed LOA to remove discipline.

Additionally, not ALL mechanics were included, some groups are not part of this, which cast further doubt on the IBTs story that its a good will gesture.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

ThirdSeatHero,

"Its also again worth noting, the UAL mechanics would NOT be part of District 141. We will have our own District and Locals"

Aren't all districts governed by the Grand Lodge? Are you implying District 141 may not be as trustworthy as another District? They are all IAM.

I'm implying nothing of the sort, our new District & Locals will focus on maintenance issues alone, that is difference I was trying to illustrate.

 

[Larrs]

I'm implying nothing of the sort, our new District & Locals will focus on maintenance issues alone, that is difference I was trying to illustrate.

How is that unity? How would union members benefit from being isolated with a obsolete union? I think what Ez and most UA union members want is to be a strong bargaining union which the IBT will be with MM, CG, PC, JL, RR all in one union. To bad you like to be compartmentalinazlied

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

How is that unity? How would union members benefit from being isolated with a obsolete union? I think what Ez and most UA union members want is to be a strong bargaining union which the IBT will be with MM, CG, PC, JL, RR all in one union. To bad you like to be compartmentalinazlied

How is that unity? How is it not? How is a seperate District for Mechanics somehow translate into no unity? Whoever said that simply becuase we want a Mechanic focused District for our day-to-day administation, that we wouldn't back our IAM brothers and sisters in negotiations?

Obsolete Union? As opposed to what? The IBT?

A Union under oversight by the Federal Government? A Union with the majority appointed, and few elected?

Perhaps you simply lack perspective.

I've been "represented" by the IBT for over 2 years now, and see nothing of what you think you might find with this organization.

You speak of unity, heres one of the IBTs ideas of unity.

UAL mechanics in SFO are split between to locals, 856 & 986, the divison of members is based soley on your last name, A-L = 856, M-Z = 986.

What kind of "unity" can we as a membership at 1 station have being split between two locals?


You're being sold on the IBT by the same handlers that ran the campaign for the mechanics, and you're headed for the same distinct LACK of representation if you do.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

How is that unity? How would union members benefit from being isolated with a obsolete union? I think what Ez and most UA union members want is to be a strong bargaining union which the IBT will be with MM, CG, PC, JL, RR all in one union. To bad you like to be compartmentalinazlied

A direct example of the truth behind IBT "strong bargaining" - Horizon Air

The IBT represents both Mechanics and Pilots.

One would think this constituted a strong bargaining group, yet both have seperate negotiations, and the strength of a united front in this instance is being clearly ignored.

Case in point, Horizon Air announced during these negotiations it is now outsourcing all aircraft heavy maintenance, resulting in mechanic layoffs, which the teamsters were unable to stop.

Did the teamsters use the strength of their position and threaten to have the pilots stand with the mechanics to preserve their jobs and keep work in house???

No. The pilots just got a seperate Tentative Agreement. The mechanics are on their own. Some Unity!

Could not this very thing happen between groups at UAL under the IBT?

 

[Bob Owens]

Speaking for myself only, I am cautiously optimistic. We'll see what happens.

Well whatever you guys decide we as mechanics need to start working more closely across the industry. Thats one reason why I'm a little doubtful over the move to the IAM. Looking at absolutes you would be going to the union that negotiated the worst contract in the Industry (USAIR-although it does have some good points such at the automatic 3% increase if they dont get a new agreement by the amendable date) and getting rid of one that has negotiated some of the best language and without question the best wage (UPS). Other than USAIR where do they represent mechanics? Didnt the IAM put in the language that UAL used to wipe out your OH which was blamed on AMFA? They gloated over the decimation of mechanics at NWA, sorry but no matter how much unionists may dissagree we should never aid management in the destruction of another union, thats just plain wrong and one of the reasons why American workers are seeing such a decline. The failure at NWA had no positive effects on those of us who work in the industry, however those who work for some of the Unions in this industry seem to look at it as some sort of twisted victory. The failure wasnt confined to AMFA, it was a failure for all Labor, those who fail to see that have no business being in the labor movement.

If you are so unhappy that the IBT hasnt delivered, which I'm guessing is the same reason you booted IAM and AMFA, have you guys tried contacting the TDU and aligning with them?

Whatever you guys decide I wish you the best because in the end we are in this together. These companies are all bringing in billion$ more with less of us and paying us less on top of that. We are stuck in a race to the bottom while everybody else is getting more than ever before. The only people in the labor movement that are seeing gains are the ones running it and making promises they wont or cant keep. They are sitting around in their suits laughing at us. Workers arent competitors, the banks, oil companies, airports, vendors and other corporations are our competitors, whether you work for AA, UA, US, or CO. They stand betweeen us and a fair wage because they are sucking them billion$ out faster than our labor and wage cuts put them in. Our leaders seem to take their side telling us that there really is nothing left for us instead of asking why. We need to move towards consolidation in one form or another so we take them on, otherwise we will just keep bouncing around looking for a saviour as we continue sliding backwards.

 

[T5towbar]

I can't speak for the mechanics. Even though they are IBT, I don't know what their grievances or beefs are or whatever. I can only speak for what I know on the ramp side at CO.

A lot of knew that this merger was coming. Especially after the DL/NW happened. If we merged and didn't have a union, we would be sent way down to a bottom of a union seniority list. We would have lost a whole lot in this merger. This is the reverse of DL/NW, whreas UA has the bigger more senior workforce, and we would be sent to either the bottom or re-interview for our jobs. Also, there were going to be a change of management too, and we felt that this was the time to organize. The IBT really did their job to knock on doors and get out a vote drive even under the old rules. I for one am glad that we have a union, but we still don't have a contract yet. It is still in progress.

I got to read the IBT UA ramp contract and it has some items that we don't have in out FTW Handbook. Even though it was a contract under BK, some items are a lot better than what we have. In either case, in order for this merger to proceed, the wheels will have to be "greased" so to speak, and raises will have to be given all the way around. I would think that the UA guys will want their pay restored back to pre-BK levels, (they make more than us) and we would like to have some of our things that we lost as well. Now that this merger is in play, all bets are off. Everything is on the table. But I think that once the pilots get it together, things will happen faster for everyone else.

Either union (IAM/IBT) must come up with a superior and winning package to win over the voters.
I'm just looking for a raise and more benefits.

 

[787nightmare]

IAM? Really? Didnt that union lose nearly half its membership between two conventions? Other than the fact that its a fraction of the size and doesnt represent many Airline Mechanics (other than USAIR-the lowest paid in the industry) what do they have to offer that the IBT doesnt?

The IBT represents UPS, the highest paid airline mechanics, IAM represents USAIR, the lowest paid. At least with the IBT you could say they arent doing their best, with the IAM you would not want their best.

My God...please tell me the UAL mechs are not going to take the IAM back. What does it take??
What happened to AMFA at UAL? Never really heard why AMFA failed ay UA. Some have said AMFA never really had a chance to establish it self there. I don't know..??

Like the guy said above...why not form your own association? I've been wondering this for years.
Come negotiation time...hire you some top gun attorneys to help with negotiations. C'mon, honestly, what difference does it make?
The other so called "unions" that have represented the mechanics have done a terrible job(at best)representing A/Ps.
I really see no reason why the aircraft mechs can't represent themselves. Sort of an "ALPA" or AFA" for mechanics.
Are we not capable of such a task??!!.....it's why the carriers can't take us seriously guys. Think about it!

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Well whatever you guys decide we as mechanics need to start working more closely across the industry. Thats one reason why I'm a little doubtful over the move to the IAM....

Bob, most all your questions were asked back in late 2008, almost verbatim. The answer was as I stated at the onset of my explanation of the IAM decision in my original response...

""...The skepticism is understandable considering the IAMs history at UAL, but it is not the same IAM we would be returning to should a card drive prove successful...""


Consider for a moment, it wasn't the entire IAM union that did/did not do the list of things you mentioned, it was controlled, and/or sanctioned by the District Lodges. Contract language to Strike breaking, and on and on, all directed through a District Lodge.

What happens when we as mechanics NOW truly control that District Lodge?

Is it the entity of the organization as a whole or the poor decisions of the people in it that define a Union?

This was at the center of a lengthy and often heated discussion which launched our organizing efforts.

The IAM, IBT-TDU, AMFA, even the TWU were all discussed at length. All have their strengths and all have there blemishes, some more so than others. Take for instance your comments and critiques on the IBT and their contract language/ wages, as I mentioned earlier, its about more than simply a dollar sign. At Horizon Air they (IBT)were unable to stop the outsourcing of heavy maintenance during negotiations, and SWA is another perfect example also previously mentioned, immediately following a ratified IBT agreement they decertified the IBT, why???

Representation.

Again as before, having now experienced teamster "representation" for the last 2+ years first hand, I understand completely why the SWA mechanics decertified the IBT. One should not have to choose between contractual gains and effective day-to-day representation, a Union should always strive to deliver the best of both.

The situation in changing representation is by no means ideal, but after weighing our options, and factoring in those issues specific to UAL and the Mechanics, we as an organizing committee came to the conclusion that the IAM provided us the best opportunity for moving forward.

All this said, I agree with your assessment that we as mechanics need to move toward consolidation, the real question remains however, is with who.

 

[ezchkin]

""...The skepticism is understandable considering the IAMs history at UAL, but it is not the same IAM we would be returning to should a card drive prove successful...""

This is one statement we agree upon. There is only one teeny tiny difference. You believe they have improved. I have witnessed the downhill slide from good to poor performance.

I absolutely agree with Bob to the point that any true unionist could never condone the actions that IAM took with the NW mechs. The IAM had the inside and outside job groups covered for solidarity but ignored it for their (IAM) own selfish tantrums. I was at the district convention and heard the bolstering myself. I am not a mech nor do I work for NW, but for this reason among many others, I will vote no union before I ever would vote for IAM.

On another note, thanks for the link to the election protest. I found it interesting read. Actually I am impressed that this came about over circulating election material. My only union experience is with the IAM. In the last couple of years I have experienced candidates (IAM) from all over the U.S.A. coming to my lodge meetings (of course just casual visits) to campaign. All on the union clock, hotels, food, positive pass tvl. I have had their literature placed in my company mailbox. Heck, if you're voting for the "right" candidate, the AGC even rents a van to give you a ride to the polls!

To the CO ramp employee, I think the IBT will bring you a TA before the IAM will get one for UA. IAM/UA is going on 2 yrs of negotiating a new agreement. The IAM has no backbone and is fearful if they go first, the IBT will come in and be better. You see it's really not all about the betterment of the whole, it's about the political tool (new contract) to be used to get everyones dues $$,uh, I mean vote.

This brings me back to you, ThirdSeatHero. Do you remember back when you guys were going with AMFA? How many years did the IAM string you guys along fighting you all the way, at least 2 years? Did they use that time to work with you guys for changes you wanted then? I think not. They did the math. They knew the furloughs in the thousands were coming (heck, they negotiated it not AMFA) they multiplied the dues times thousands times 2 years. I think you'll remember because you still use their phrase, raiders. The AMFA didn't raid the IAM of mechs, the mechs went running to AMFA!

 

[Bob Owens]

Is it the entity of the organization as a whole or the poor decisions of the people in it that define a Union?

Is is the poor decisions of the people that run it that tarnish a Union. Its become fashionable for leaders of Unions to blame the members over the years (not during an election of course)but its the leaders, whether its a union, a company or a Nation that are responsible. It goes with the job of being a leader.

I'll let you guys duke it out, just dont make the wounds too deep, in the end we have to realize that we are allies, not competitors. Whoever wins we have to get together and be prepared to take the fight to not only the companies but the government that helps them kick our butts year after year. If we could get Hoffa, Buffenbarger and Little to see it that way then we might have a chance!

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

Both Mechanics at CO and UA are IBT, there is not IBT vs IAM, that would be the ramp.

 

[T5towbar]

Sorry, I have to correct myself. I mistyped.
I read the IAM 2005 - 2009 United ramp and stores contract. Not the IBT.
I'm looking forward to our IBT contract. Problem is it will be a short lived one as we all will have to vote again for a single union and a very strong contract.

Sounds like it is going to be a wild and dirty campaign and let's see who lies or tries to sell us down the river. I know that the IBT won't go down without a fight and neither the IAM.

God bless us all..............