Northwest lives up to tough image

[Don Smith]

That's nice. (Is it possible for you to have a discussion without resorting to insults and name-calling?)

It is remarkable that your post did not seem to take note of the fact that NW is BANKRUPT. As in, IT CAN'T PAY THE BILLS. It is BROKE. It CANNOT meet all of its contractual obligations -- with labor and with many, many other creditors. You cite the RLA a lot, but conveniently ignore bankruptcy law.

So what should NW do since it cannot meet all of its contractual obligations? Simply close the doors yesterday? How well do you think labor would make out in that scenario?

Well Bear, let me set you straight on something...nwa is NOT broke. When nwa began its union busting plan a year before it's BK filing it had an estimated $2.5B (as in Billion) in the bank. When nwa went into BK it had nearly $2B (as in Billion) in the bank. This money was courtesy of the U.S. government as part of the bailout of airlines over 9-11. nwa went into BK to hold onto that massive amount of cash and bilk it's creditors. Dougie Steenland calls it "reorganization". At last report the cash is now at $1.5B. Still a healthy amount of money for a company that is now MAKING money. So for my part there aren't any crocodile tears for the money troubles at nwa.

 

[Bear96]

Well Bear, let me set you straight on something...nwa is NOT broke. . . . At last report the cash is now at $1.5B. Still a healthy amount of money for a company that is now MAKING money. So for my part there aren't any crocodile tears for the money troubles at nwa.

NW entered Ch.11 because its liabilities exceeded its assets. If it had not entered Ch.11, it would have had to shut down when the cash ran out and when creditors starting forcing liquidation. If it hadn't taken advantage of ways to reduce its costs under Ch.11, they probably wouldn't be "MAKING money" now, as you put it.

How much of the $1.5B is unrestricted cash? Even if all of it is, $1.5B is not a whole lot of cash to have on hand for an enterprise the size of NW.

Should businesses operate with zero cash on hand?

How come you aren't running your own airline your way since you know so much about airline finances?

 

[Don Smith]

NW entered Ch.11 because its liabilities exceeded its assets. If it had not entered Ch.11, it would have had to shut down when the cash ran out and when creditors starting forcing liquidation. If it hadn't taken advantage of ways to reduce its costs under Ch.11, they probably wouldn't be "MAKING money" now, as you put it.

How much of the $1.5B is unrestricted cash? Even if all of it is, $1.5B is not a whole lot of cash to have on hand for an enterprise the size of NW.

Should businesses operate with zero cash on hand?

How come you aren't running your own airline your way since you know so much about airline finances?

nwa entered Chapter 11 BK because of timing. US airlines have supposedly been operating at deficit spending levels for years. nwa saw the BK laws changing and got in under the wire along with it's dance partner Delta. The people that support US airlines have some of the deepest pockets on planet Earth. How can airlines loose millions every quarter and keep operating. You're either cooking the books to make it "appear" that you are in the red or your supporters are going through a ton of cash.
Whether the $2.5B is restricted or unrestricted it is still adding to the bottom line. In BK, nwa can now spend freely. If there is a restriction all they have to do is ask the judge for permission to use it. The fact that the $2.5B number is now reported to be $1.5B means somebody is spending it.
Granted Bear, what I know about airline finances is limited, but my sense of smell is just fine and I've said it before on these threads that something is rotten at nwa.
nwa not only used BK filing to get relief from it's creditors but also to stick it to the employee groups.

 

[MCI transplant]

That's nice. (Is it possible for you to have a discussion without resorting to insults and name-calling?)

It is remarkable that your post did not seem to take note of the fact that NW is BANKRUPT. As in, IT CAN'T PAY THE BILLS. It is BROKE. It CANNOT meet all of its contractual obligations -- with labor and with many, many other creditors. You cite the RLA a lot, but conveniently ignore bankruptcy law.

So what should NW do since it cannot meet all of its contractual obligations? Simply close the doors yesterday? How well do you think labor would make out in that scenario?

<_< ----Well for starters, they could cut the saleries, and purks, of the board, and top execs! Why reward them for failure! They are the ones who took the Company into Bankrupcy! If they don't like it, let them go on down the road!

 

[Hackman]

Exacty PB!!! "When the CEO pulls a Lee Iacocca and actually LEADS his company and it's employees great things can happen. However be like Steenland and Cohen and you find yourself dangerously close to the next Eastern."

Lead by example, instead of with your MOUTH. Scab Air thinks of its employees as the ememy, and have insulted and trampled over them for years. They think nothing of the workers, except as one-armed vending machines, who need to know their place in society. A failing company with pissed off workers is the result. :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

[Don Smith]

.... who need to know their place in society. A failing company with pissed off workers is the result. :angry: :angry: :angry:.....

Wasn't this a quote from one of Doug Steenland's rants toward an employee group at nwa?

 

[Hackman]

Wasn't this a quote from one of Doug Steenland's rants toward an employee group at nwa?

That's right Don, but it wasn't Stealin'. It was during the AMFA negotiations in 2000 or so, and I think it was the CFO at the time, who I can't recall. I can research the AMFA negotiations at that time and find it. It was stated to the AMFA negotiators by this CFO, and it is a timeless example of how management regards workers.

This forced strike nothing more than Dougie Stealin's attempted revenge against AMFA for pushing negotiations to a PEB and winning the best mechanic contract we will most likely ever see at an airline. :down:

 

[finman]

nwa entered Chapter 11 BK because of timing. US airlines have supposedly been operating at deficit spending levels for years. nwa saw the BK laws changing and got in under the wire along with it's dance partner Delta. The people that support US airlines have some of the deepest pockets on planet Earth. How can airlines loose millions every quarter and keep operating. You're either cooking the books to make it "appear" that you are in the red or your supporters are going through a ton of cash.
Whether the $2.5B is restricted or unrestricted it is still adding to the bottom line. In BK, nwa can now spend freely. If there is a restriction all they have to do is ask the judge for permission to use it. The fact that the $2.5B number is now reported to be $1.5B means somebody is spending it.
Granted Bear, what I know about airline finances is limited, but my sense of smell is just fine and I've said it before on these threads that something is rotten at nwa.
nwa not only used BK filing to get relief from it's creditors but also to stick it to the employee groups.

To anyone with any knowledge of airline finance, (or any kind of finance for that matter) you pretty much sound like an idiot. The cash on hand was made up entirely by operating loans. NWA was able to stay afloat while losing money by borrowing more money. I suppose it's easier to assume some evil propogation than to pick up a business journal or newspaper and educate yourself on the fundamentals at play.

 

[finman]

I see it is time for a little bootlicker education session.
The very term "Collective bargaining" is a tried and true method of union/company negotiation for a mutually agreed upon outcome of said labor negotiations. The right to strike (or self-help in the RLA) is only allowed after months of futile bargaining in which no agreement can be reached. In the case of nwa, no agreement could have been reached. When I say, "they backed us into a corner", their unreasonable demands were designed to do just that. nwa made an initial offer and the AMFA countered. Our negotiating team looked at the data that nwa put forward and conceded that a concession was required. We just disagreed on the amount of the concession. When the company came back with it's "counter offer" the terms sudenly were worse than the first offer. Still the same concession amount they asked for before but now instead of keeping 2,500 employees they now said they would only keep 1,500. When the AMFA countered again the company's counter was to reduce the number retained to 1,000. The last bout with nwa saw the number reduced to 500. They have taken Boulwarism to a new low.
In truth, the AMFA was the only one in the party that bargained in "good faith". Spending $100M and a years time training a replacement workforce shows me a decided lack of ethics in the "bargaining" process.

The obvious reply here is, why weren't AMFA negotiators smart enough to figure out that the 2,500 jobs offer was generous under the given circumstances? Once AMFA rejected that "good faith" offer from NWA, then there was nowhere to negotiate to except for the elimination of AMFA. The most important part of negotiating is knowing exactly what chips you actually hold. AMFA overplayed their hand, which made traditional "good faith" meet at the middle bargaining non-applicable.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

To anyone with any knowledge of airline finance, (or any kind of finance for that matter) you pretty much sound like an idiot. The cash on hand was made up entirely by operating loans. NWA was able to stay afloat while losing money by borrowing more money. I suppose it's easier to assume some evil propogation than to pick up a business journal or newspaper and educate yourself on the fundamentals at play.

Yea, and I bet there was someone just like you echoing the same sentiments over at ENRON when they were first accused of any nefarious activity.

 

[big jimmy]

Wasn't this a quote from one of Doug Steenland's rants toward an employee group at nwa?

<_< that was goreman who made that comment. He then headed off to krispy kreme dognuts to ruin that company. who cares where he is now. maybe finman can get his head out of dougs ass long enough to tell us.

 

[finman]

Yea, and I bet there was someone just like you echoing the same sentiments over at ENRON when they were first accused of any nefarious activity.

If you have evidence or citations related to NWA falsifying financial statements, please share it with us all. If not, then you're statement is completely irrelevant and, again, quite idiotic.

 

[finman]

<_< that was goreman who made that comment. He then headed off to krispy kreme dognuts to ruin that company. who cares where he is now. maybe finman can get his head out of dougs ass long enough to tell us.

That would require me to give a rats ars. Not to defend the guy you're talking about (because, like I said, I don't pay much attention to the careers of prior NWA execs), I think a little diet craze called "low carb" had more to do with krispy kreme's fate than any executive could inflict.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

If you have evidence or citations related to NWA falsifying financial statements, please share it with us all. If not, then you're statement is completely irrelevant and, again, quite idiotic.

Yea, you're right. NWA is most certainly a bastion of moral and ethical buisness practice.

It is quite idiotic to even question them.

 

[robbedagain]

then why is the entire upper level people you call mgmt gettin big dough while they are screwing the hard working union people out of job finman? there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for the ACTIONS that SCRAP METAL AIR has taken towards the employees. THERE IS NO EXCUSE