New CS Policy?

[eolesen]

Saying that CSW is the same as trip trading is partially true, except flight attendants and pilots still have to comply with duty legalities, which are totally absent for ground workers except for flight dispatchers and maybe load agents.

Something else to consider is that CSW is somewhat unique to airlines. Under FLSA, which applies to just about every other industry, you are legally obligated to pay overtime beyond 8 hours in one day or 40 hours in a workweek. Don't recall if there are exceptions for a four day/10h workweek or not.

 

[paul1]

Saying that CSW is the same as trip trading is partially true, except flight attendants and pilots still have to comply with duty legalities, which are totally absent for ground workers except for flight dispatchers and maybe load agents.

Something else to consider is that CSW is somewhat unique to airlines. Under FLSA, which applies to just about every other industry, you are legally obligated to pay overtime beyond 8 hours in one day or 40 hours in a workweek. Don't recall if there are exceptions for a four day/10h workweek or not.

mechanics have a monthly duty time limit

 

[Frank Szabo]

Saying that CSW is the same as trip trading is partially true, except flight attendants and pilots still have to comply with duty legalities, which are totally absent for ground workers except for flight dispatchers and maybe load agents. ... snip

Sorry E, but even as a knuckle dragging diemaker, I am subject to the duty time limitations as is anyone carrying the title of AMT - a safety sensitive position - irrelevent however, as I removed myself from the overtime list years ago as all we did on weekends was someone else's job and no overtime offered during the week.

Instances abound of mekaniks (AMTs) being sent home for a day's rest (at TULE) because of this.

 

[eolesen]

Sorry E, but even as a knuckle dragging diemaker, I am subject to the duty time limitations as is anyone carrying the title of AMT - a safety sensitive position - irrelevent however, as I removed myself from the overtime list years ago as all we did on weekends was someone else's job and no overtime offered during the week.

Instances abound of mekaniks (AMTs) being sent home for a day's rest (at TULE) because of this.

So all the licensed positions have maxes. Didn't know that, but glad there is. Is it simply monthly, or are there day/week caps?

They still don't exist for agents or fleet service, though, and there's a lot more shift trading going on in those workgroups.

 

[Frank Szabo]

So all the licensed positions have maxes. Didn't know that, but glad there is. Is it simply monthly, or are there day/week caps?

They still don't exist for agents or fleet service, though, and there's a lot more shift trading going on in those workgroups.

You'll have to ask someone who may have been sent home by this - I'm not on the OT list and won't be anytime soon. FYI - even though the Navy gave me a complete powerplants course in 1969 (trained on F-86s w/ the J-47 Powerplant - WOW) and I worked on a number of their hot-rods' engines in AIMD (hence the winged prop as an avatar - ADJ), I'm not a certificated airman - driver's license, amateur radio license and CCW are all the extra cards I hold, in addition to holding an ambition to play the piano in a whorehouse if ever I grow up (if they still have one of those 200 pound baby grands from the 747 upstairs lounge, they could ship it to TULE Tool & Die, 256-6 for me - a whorehouse can take many forms but it's still a whorehouse).

I believe, however, it's so many days on duty and time off is mandatory (24 hrs) and applies to anyone in what's deemed a safety-sensitive position by the FFA (intentional) - titles of AMT, FA, or pilot, or basically, the same groups subject to drug testing (which I be willing to bet a paycheck that most of the execs WOULDN'T pass).

 

[strikeforce]

Saying that CSW is the same as trip trading is partially true, except flight attendants and pilots still have to comply with duty legalities, which are totally absent for ground workers except for flight dispatchers and maybe load agents.

Something else to consider is that CSW is somewhat unique to airlines. Under FLSA, which applies to just about every other industry, you are legally obligated to pay overtime beyond 8 hours in one day or 40 hours in a workweek. Don't recall if there are exceptions for a four day/10h workweek or not.

CS policy is just another company carrot that AA dangles over the mechanics. Our agreement also pays OT after 8 hours on 5/8 and 10 hours on 4/10, except during a CS. Too many rules to remember.

As far as this New CS Policy......is it something that will be systemwide? Is it already out? In ORD a revised CS Policy was written in July 2010. Will this new policy supercede ORD's?

 

[Chuck Schalk]

The worst proposal by the company and the major cities sigh. The company is messing with our CS,ing, and now we had better do soemthing!!!! Priorities are out of alignment.

 

[TWU informer]

I suspect I have been missing the boat on the advantages of CS'ing. What is it that this is screwing me out of that I never seemed to have had to begin with? It appears to be such an emotional issue, I must have really missed the boat big time on this one. Can any AMT explain to me what he/she has been getting that this change will eliminate? Details please.

 

[TWU informer]

Thats why we need CS language in the contract like Continental and United, true or not current policy is dictated unilaterally. We proposed it, the company would not even consider it. They said "We like it the way it is".

Bob is it possible the company agrees but wants something in exchange? What is it that triggered the sudden change of policy here?

 

[paul1]

What is it that triggered the sudden change of policy here?

someone posting on the forum that its going to happen LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Boomer]

Bob is it possible the company agrees but wants something in exchange? What is it that triggered the sudden change of policy here?

It appears that the change in policy is the result of an announced intent by the FAA of changing the interpretation of FAR 121.377.

FAA seeking comments on change in interpretation of FAR 121.377

Under the old interpretation of the FAR, an AMT at an FAA 121 certificated air carrier could actually work 24 hours a day for 26 of 30 days; so long as the 27th to 30th days were forced off.

The new interpretation seems to be that every seven days, a certificated airman could work 6 of 7 twenty four hour periods in an individual week so long as the 7th was forced off.

Reportedly, the FAA is seeking to limit the actual duty day for an AMT working under a 121 Air Carrier certificate because even they recognize that the new interpretation falls far short of the actual rest requirements dictated by their human factors training.

In my opinion, the air carrier industry, and their suppliers, covered by both the new interpretation, (and the possibility of future regulation,) are attempting to cover themselves in the event of the new interpretation becoming law and any future rulings that would further limit duty times for certificated airmen they employ.

Bottom line is that the new interpretation could have the effect of forcing 121 air carriers, and their suppliers, to hire more employees that do not exist due to the lack of certificates issued.

End State: either higher wages to entice new entrants into the industry or a reintroduction of FAR Part 66.

Guess which one will hit the floor first?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob is it possible the company agrees but wants something in exchange? What is it that triggered the sudden change of policy here?

No, they didnt even respond to it, acted as if we didnt even put it in there. When challenged they simply responded "We like it the way it is".

The proposal was inspired by the Continental language, we never had it before so we werent going to get tangled up in it. Didnt want to give the company yet another month to drag things out.

Continental has it in their contract that they can do back to back doubles.

The policy change covers everyone under Devalle, not aircarft maint so far, as I see it those stations that have back to back doubles should still have them unless Jim Ream puts out a letter stating otherwise. We havent had back to back doubles in Maint for years in New York (except on Field trips of course where we stay on the clock till we get back or we won't go). Cobbett banned back to backs out of spite because he couldnt stand us. He wanted the Wallen Report, his MO was take something away then demand something else in return for it. He was told he could keep his back to backs. Guys were able to work around it.

As far as what triggered it maybe in fleet they realize that they have a lot of guys that hardly ever work yet they are paying for their benefits and the guys that work all the extra hours are getting hurt too much due to wear and tear. Its a hard job crawling around in those bellies.

I took full advantage of the CS's before taking office. Saved me 40% on my commuting costs and I could put in two full days work on the other job and still be off the weekends. It was rough working 17hrs(6am to 11pm), then going home sleeping for 4 and a half hours (one hour commute each way) then going back but it allowed me to pay the bills and put the wife through school, sort of, I still went into debt.

The best thing the company could do from a Union perspective is crack down on the CS's, that would force the guys to fight back. The liberal CS policy in many stations keeps the place running because many treat this as their second job and do what they can to get the plane off the gate so they can kick back and watch the giant flat screen TVs the company bought for the ready rooms. The last thing many of these guys want to do is find something that will keep them working till punch out time then have to drag themselves to their other job exhausted. If the company eliminates their ability to work the second job they have no choice but to get more money from this one, or quit, so they would lose their most motivated gate clearers either way. Working OT is easier than working two jobs and there aren't that many second jobs that pay $45/hr. Guys may realize that OT is a better deal, even better than doubles (stay four hours and get six hours pay vs stay 8.5 extra hours for 8 hours pay, pull down 3 OT a week and get 18 hours extra pay for just 12 hours invested vs putting in 17 extra hours for 16 hrs pay). They may look a little harder and follow the company's word about "Verbatum".

For years the company has told us how the passengers just click on the cheapest fare, so trying to appeal to guys who are trying to survive after losing half their real income, and now taking away their ability to make up for that loss with their second job, about how he is ruining someones vacation by not hustling to get that plane out isnt going to motivate too many people. Response would probably be that they should have chosen Southwest, an airline that knows how to pay their mechanics!

 

[Bob Owens]

It appears that the change in policy is the result of an announced intent by the FAA of changing the interpretation of FAR 121.377.

FAA seeking comments on change in interpretation of FAR 121.377

Maybe this is leading to that. The letter refers only to title groups under Devalle. If they did it the other way around, banning back to back doubles in maint while leaving the ramp they would more than likely end up with a system in revolt. This way they can say "Dont be mad at us, they already did it to fleet". I dont think it will matter.

Reportedly, the FAA is seeking to limit the actual duty day for an AMT working under a 121 Air Carrier certificate because even they recognize that the new interpretation falls far short of the actual rest requirements dictated by their human factors training.

I met Rojer Hughes at DFW a while ago and he was telling me about the human factors program and the concern the FAA had with fatigue. I told him they were pissing into the wind with duty times and that they only way they could properly address fatigue was to address wages first. How can someone rest if they cant provide food and shelter for their family? You either have to earn more per hour or work more hours.

In my opinion, the air carrier industry, and their suppliers, covered by both the new interpretation, (and the possibility of future regulation,) are attempting to cover themselves in the event of the new interpretation becoming law and any future rulings that would further limit duty times for certificated airmen they employ.

Bottom line is that the new interpretation could have the effect of forcing 121 air carriers, and their suppliers, to hire more employees that do not exist due to the lack of certificates issued.

End State: either higher wages to entice new entrants into the industry or a reintroduction of FAR Part 66.

Guess which one will hit the floor first?

Agreed. Thats why I say our window of opportunity may be short.

A while ago I wrote that if all the mechanics in this industry refused to work more than 40 that the system would collapse, the company saw it as a call for a job action. I consider it to more of a hypothesis.

 

[Interested]

And after working your shift, you go to your other job, and have zero days off.

 

[comatose]

Hold over and early call OT will be nonexistent with one double. The day before the double you’re ineligible, the day of the double ineligible, the day after ineligible unless it’s your day off. Good luck to the clerks trying to figure this mess out. Hard enough for them to run an OT list to begin with. Late complex, sorry I can only work an 8hr shift.