New ATC Delay Program

[trvlr64]

Hey MMW......this would explain why a buddy of mine sat on the tarmac in PHL for 4 hours last night (6/8). Boy was he P!$$ed off. He said the pilot made an announcement that all flying in and out of PHL was on a stop. No other explanation.

Boy it would be nice if the government would inform it's citizens and the airlines would inform it's customers about this new policy.

It's going to be an ugly summer in the northeast.

:down:

 

[PITbull]

Today is the first day for the new ATC Quota Flow Program which restricts airspace access during severe weather events, versus restricting just the high density airports like LGA, EWR and PHL. This means delays will impact airports like PVD, BDL, BWI, MDT, ABE, AVP etc. Delays are averaging 1 hour to 2.5 hours.

This will have a HUGE impact on NE carriers like US. Instead of having 2-3 airplanes delayed and misconnecting, you will know have the potential for 10-12 airplanes per bank! This change is going to be very costly and a hige impact on all carriers and customers making connections this summer. ATC Centers and regions that are normally exempt from delays are now involved, such as the Caribbean abd West Coast centers. Tonight all the flights from the West Coast / Caribbean to PHL are being delays almost 2 hours due to T-storm activity in New York / Boston / Washington Centers.

Hang on boys and girls.....it is going to be FUGLY.

Check out the ATCSCC Website and click on the FCAA01 and FCAA02 links to see the effected areas.

http://192.90.22.131/ois/

Mark,

Now why do you think this was instituted? Could there be just too many a/c in the air space making it very high risk in severe weather conditions????

What's more important...on time, or safety? There is so much traffic in EWR, PHL, LGA, JFK.

Your CEO is purchasing more RJs. Hint...you need to get the RJs out of the sky and bring in bigger a/c that carry more folks to their destinations.

 

[robbedagain]

Mark, we have never dealt with an international flt and the capt said that he couldnt take fuel with a door closed. We had our mobile stairs up to him but he told us he couldnt get fuel until the airport had customs declared that the pax were prescreened in BDA. hope that helps.

as for the other request, although it was our first time ever dealing with the 76 it went pretty well. he sat on the ground I'd say about 30 to 45 min. I told the capt that this was our first and he helped us along the way. many thanks to them for being patient

 

[PHL]

I think it's fantastic that ABE turned a 67 so quickly when put in a situation like that. Kudos!

As for the ATC program - frankly, I think it's the right thing to do. It's going to pi55 off enough passengers that the airlines will either cry and moan to the FAA to dump the new ATC program, or they will be forced to change the schedules to better deal with weather ops. Maybe summer schedules should lighten the arrivals/departures during the late afternoon/evening hours in the areas prone to the boomers. Don't schedule more than 80% of what the airport can handle. I dunno - maybe I'm just thinking too rationally.

Someone already hit it - TOO MANY FRIGGIN' PLANES scheduled at these busy airports in any given 15 minute window. ATC is sending a clear message to ALL airlines to get their crap together and schedule their flights better. Why didn't PHL stick with the rolling hub?! For the short time it was instituted, it seemed to be working ewll.

This is already sounding like the Summer of 2000 debacles that were written about back then with the same situation - too many planes, too few runways and gates.

 

[Prince of PAWOBs]

I hope this illustrates the value of Pittsburgh to Tempe. There was a logical reason to have two hubs in Pennsylvania. When you put all the eggs in one basket, you better hope you don't drop it and break them all. Pittsburgh and Philadelphia once had a symbiotic relationship. Too bad those days are over.

Enjoy the ATC delays on top of everything else in PHL, you bunch of geniuses.

 

[zethya]

Don't worry I get plenty of homework from many many ex-customers of ours who no longer fly US anymore due to PHL being about the only option. Sorry but I just don't buy the line that PHL is where all the money's at and it would still make more sense to send your bread and butter connecting passengers through an airport that can actually handle it, away from the Nightmare, Northeast corridor. People want a good dependable product when they fly, and they get neither one from being shoved through PHL.

Actually in reading many of your posts, it's obvious that you are a "stuck in Pittsburgh" basher, who invents no-facts to support a very unsupportive agenda. How about presenting a few facts as to why you "know" "PHL is NOT where all the money's at" and who are all these "many many ex-customers of ours who no longer fly US anymore due to PHL."? Where are these many, many customers now connecting - EWR, LGA, ATL? Wow, no delays there. You obviously do not want to believe anything the financial reports or the CEO himself discloses - why, because it doesn't suit your agenda. PIT lost money during each of the last 5 years and only this year has turned a (very) small profit after extensive downsizing. If US had retained PIT and it's hub and spoke dependency as you propose, it would now be entering it's 3rd bankruptcy. I get the feeling that you have little understanding about airline economics, particularly the value of O&D and the need for an airline to MAKE a profit. US is not in the business of making everyone happy, nor are they in the business of artificially making Pittsburgh something that it is NOT. PHL is US Airways Premier facility (inefficiences and all) and CLT is it's largest hub. One who doesn't accept that fact should take their business and/or employment elsewhere. There is very little economic comparison between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia - Pittsburgh is a medium size city which really has much more air transportation than it deserves, when compared to it's peers. The Philadelphia region is the 4th largest MSA region in the U.S. (Pittsburgh is #21). If you were an airline in the business of making money, which one would you prefer? I do believe that if a giant whale jet could lift the physical PIT airport into the Philadelphia area, you and your fellow bashers would still fabricate a million illogical reasons why it wouldn't work - because it's not in Pittsburgh. It would be so refreshing to just once hear from someone living in Pittsburgh who presents a reasonable and educated solution to their economic problems - one which doesn't blame every one and every place else for situations they brought upon themselves.

 

[ClueByFour]

PIT lost money during each of the last 5 years and only this year has turned a (very) small profit after extensive downsizing.

Since US has never broken out it's P/L statement on a city by city basis, your first point (at least in terms of what is available to the public) is nothing more than conjecture.

But (and much more telling), US itself (or even the combined US/HP entity) also lost money during each of the last 5 years and only this year has turned a (very) small profit after extensive downsizing.

It would be so refreshing to just once hear from someone living in Pittsburgh who presents a reasonable and educated solution to their economic problems - one which doesn't blame every one and every place else for situations they brought upon themselves.

Well, about a billion of the debt burden is due to US Airways using the bankruptcy process to walk away from a terminal built to the company's exact demands. Irony there, huh?

As for the drivel about "a city it's size with that kind of air service," you can make the same argument about CLT (equal or smaller in size with less O&D, yet it supports 500 flights/day). Or, for that matter, BNA or RDU.

And, much like the latter two, the air service and consumers thereof in the PIT MSA will do much better without the monopoly-hub. Oh, as an aside, O&D is way up at PIT, but only after the US hub was yanked. What US really wants is a market big enough to support "unstimulated" R&D with enough suckers to buy the monopoly hub fares (eg, CLT). That train has left the station nationwide--it's just the former denizens of CCY and the current denizens at the Sandcastle have not yet noticed.

To get back to the topic, PIT is not physically within the limits of what will be imposed every time the FAA issues an FCAA01 advisory. If US wants to continue to jam traffic thru PHL, it's going to be a long summer of SWAP.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Here is an FAA Powerpoint about the program:

http://www.fly.faa.gov/tfmlearning/cdm/Pri...Dispatchers.ppt

Maybe it is time for the Feds to set minimum a/c size requirements for the busiest airports at peak times - i.e. 100 seats to schedule a flight from LGA between 1700 and 1900.

 

[Travels2mch]

and who are all these "many many ex-customers of ours who no longer fly US anymore due to PHL."? Where are these many, many customers now connecting - EWR, LGA, ATL? Wow, no delays there.

Well I'm not all of them, and I'm not totally ex YET, but to avoid PHL, which I will never connect through that POS, I end up on UA via ORD. Most of my coworkers do the same, and on a UA flight last week, saw several people I know that were former US elites. I do love the CLT airport and do not mind connecting there, and that's OK if going south, but to backtrack to PHL to go west, and have to deal with that airport and it's employees....never again!!

I get the feeling that you have little understanding about airline economics, particularly the value of O&D and the need for an airline to MAKE a profit.

Oh the O&D is there, just ask the other airlines. Now that the monopoly pricing has diminished you can get more reasonable fares from PIT and more people are flying from there.

It would be so refreshing to just once hear from someone living in Pittsburgh

How about hearing from the many that don't live in Pittsburgh but enjoyed the connections compared to now, where they are forced through PHL. Oh wait, I think we have heard from them, many times!!

 

[MarkMyWords]

Mark,

Now why do you think this was instituted? Could there be just too many a/c in the air space making it very high risk in severe weather conditions????

What's more important...on time, or safety? There is so much traffic in EWR, PHL, LGA, JFK.

Your CEO is purchasing more RJs. Hint...you need to get the RJs out of the sky and bring in bigger a/c that carry more folks to their destinations.

Do you really want to know why this policy was instituted? Because a group of executives from the majority of the "legacy" carriers felt that they were being unfairly penalized for having high density operations at high density airports while the "newbies" were using alternate airports with little effect. The theory is, if there are weather constraints in a sector, then every one that operates in that sector should be effected. (Seems logical) So, in the past, when carriers that operate in LGA and EWR are being crushed with ATC due to SWAP (Severe Weather Avoidance Procedures) B6 was operating in and out of JFK with little or no delay. All three airports technically use the same airspace and weather that effects 2 of the airports, should effect all three. Same can be said for US at DCA, UA at IAD and WN at BWI. US and UA would get crushed with ATC issues at DCA/IAD, but WN would operate in/out of BWI with no restrictions. All of the flights technically operate in the same airspace, so why isn't the pain shared by all.

There were some benefits to how things operated yesterday. Usually in these types of events, arrivals are favored over departures to avoid diversioins and to keep the arrival rate inflated. This eventually causes a gridlock situation at airports like PHL and LGA. Yesterday, flights were departing the gate and 10-15 minutes later, they were off the ground. Some of that could be contributed to the type of weather event, or it could be that the flow of traffic in the airspace allowed for rerouting around the weather events. I guess we will see how this plays out in the next several events.

I do agree with you that we need more larger airplanes and less RJ's in the Northeast, but ultimately, when we had more large jets and less RJ's, ATC was still an issue. This isn't something that just cropped up in the last couple years.

Another issue with the sector programs versus the individual stations having programs is that you could have both! Last night all traffic from Lake Ontario thru Central PA to the MD/WV boarder and to then east to the ocean were restricted. So, you were given delays up to 2.5 hours if you were destined to that area. Then BOS had a delay program which increased delays bound for BOS even further. So during an event, you could have sector delays and then get caught in a ground stop or ground delay program that would increase delay times.

I am not sure what the answer is. I do understand the theory behind the new ATC initiative, but not so sure I agree. We will have to have a few more "events" to see how it all plays out. Needless to say....it is going to be a very long summer so plan accordingly.

Well I'm not all of them, and I'm not totally ex YET, but to avoid PHL, which I will never connect through that POS, I end up on UA via ORD.

This is something that I need help understanding. ORD has one of the worst performance records that I can think of. Aren't you trading one headache airport for another? Connecting in airports like ORD, ATL and EWR have to be just as bad as connecting in PHL. Just based on ATC/Weather issues, ORD gets to be much worse then PHL. How many people here have sat in PHL, PIT, CLT or DCA trying to get to ORD and find the flights are 2, 3, 4 hours late? Same with ATL and EWR.

PHL may be no peach, but it is definitly not much worse the other major connecting hubs. If you were to compare PHL to a hub like DFW, DTW, IAH, CLE, DEN, PHX or LAS, then you would have a much stronger arguemnt.

 

[hp_fa]

Well, about a billion of the debt burden is due to US Airways using the bankruptcy process to walk away from a terminal built to the company's exact demands. Irony there, huh?

How can you place the blame for this on current management? At the time that this planning and implimentaion was being done, current management was not even in charge of the smaller airline from west of the Mississippi.

I agree that the citizens of the PIT area got shafted with the debt from a wonderful facility. But there were many factors that led to what happened and they can't be traced to current management.

Maybe it is time for the Feds to set minimum a/c size requirements for the busiest airports at peak times - i.e. 100 seats to schedule a flight from LGA between 1700 and 1900.

I proposed something like that years ago, probably on Yahoo's AWA message board. Airspace has turned out to be a commodity and filling it with aircraft that can't get the most use of the commodity is wasting the commodity. RJ's are the problem and using them for anything more then influx from smaller feeder airports is a waste of airspace.

 

[UPNAWAY]

Airspace has turned out to be a commodity and filling it with aircraft that can't get the most use of the commodity is wasting the commodity. RJ's are the problem and using them for anything more then influx from smaller feeder airports is a waste of airspace.
[/quote]


I am amazed that they (FAA) lets airline schedule more flights than the airport can handle even in perfect weather. Look at ORD in the 5-5:30PM range. And so many of the flights have the exact same time, no airline wants to have the 5:12 flight out they all want to be the 5:00 flight out???

 

[Travels2mch]

This is something that I need help understanding. ORD has one of the worst performance records that I can think of. Aren't you trading one headache airport for another?

Actually it hasn't been bad at all and I've been flying in and out of there 6-8 times a month. I had a problem once in a snow storm getting into ORD from another city, so they put me on DL throough CVG and did OK. Have had a couple 30-45 minute delays at ORD, but ironically they usually were when I was flying US and it involved an inbound PHL flight. It's not perfect, but still much better than PHL. And you don't pull out and sit for an hour waiting to take off.

I do like connecting through CLT, but the travel time is so much longer when traveling to the midwest and west (and many times facing an RJ for a 2-3 hour flight). Going through ORD is much faster and lots of options from there on UA. Just makes more sense.

 

[LGA / 037]

LAST TIME I CHECKED WE WERE STILL PAID BY THE HOUR, GOING THROUGH PHL AND TAKE TWO TO THREE DAYS OFF YOUR BLOCK IN THE SUMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as U get off UR brakes and roll 10 feet !

 

[Dorf]

It's not perfect, but still much better than PHL. And you don't pull out and sit for an hour waiting to take off.

Last time I went through ORD it took us 3:42 to go to PIT. The actual flying part was :48.

The time before that it took 2:58 to go PIT to ORD. Flight time 1:45 because of ATC slowing us down as soon as we left the ground in PIT (plus a few turns in holding).

Luck of the draw, I guess.

Dorf