More Money To Spend

[AirLUVer]

I would rather be "penny wise pound foolish", than a defender of Industry Leading Concessions, and a Cheerleader for Corporate Welfare at the working man's expense. Or the advocate for lowering pay and benefits in exchange for jobs. When Walmart lowers pay and working conditions to create jobs and sell cheap it is a crime. When AA and the TWU do it, they are good and worthy of praise?

[post="279760"][/post]​

QUIT! or quit bit@hing please!!!

 

[aafsc]

Why do you and J7915 condone twenty years of concessions?

You believe just because there are low cost alternatives that the union employees at American Airlines should concede their wages and benefits for jobs and dues generation for the union.

If you two like the Wal-Mart concept so much you could work there?

[post="279798"][/post]​

First, I do not condone 20 years of concessions. Second, I do not shop at walmart because of their labor practices. Do you? I would move to Cuba before I would ever work at walmart.

 

[TWU informer]

First, I do not condone 20 years of concessions. Second, I do not shop  at walmart because of their labor practices. Do you? I would move to Cuba before I would ever work at walmart.

[post="279829"][/post]​

My point wasn't to compare Walmart wages and benefits directly.

It is the Corporate and Union philosphy that I see to be similar.

We don't compare Southwest and AA directly because they are two different animals, yet when it comes to cost and it is favorable to AA/TWU Management, then and only then is the Southwest comparison always thrown up.

I am willing to subsidize over staffed management, overpaid un-skilled, and decision makers that have the envy of Federal Red Tape Authors. I am willing to subsidize mangement that cannot manage so they recruit union officials who cannot manage either. I willing to trust and follow those 46 SERP recipients. I am willing to subsidize LUMP SUM retirement options that some work groups get while others get crumbs. I am willing to believe a Pilot deserves more in pension payments for flying the auto-pilot controls, than the mechanic who maintains, inspects, and insures safety of those systems gets paid while still working on them 40 hour per week.

But I also remain a realist and the business philosophy of pounding away at blue collar workers wages and benefits to keep prices low, does have a familiar ring to it.

 

[aafsc]

My point wasn't to compare Walmart wages and benefits directly.

It is the Corporate and Union philosphy that I see to be similar.

We don't compare Southwest and AA directly because they are two different animals, yet when it comes to cost and it is favorable to AA/TWU Management, then and only then is the Southwest comparison always thrown up.

I am willing to subsidize over staffed management, overpaid un-skilled, and decision makers that have the envy of Federal Red Tape Authors. I am willing to subsidize mangement that cannot manage so they recruit union officials who cannot manage either. I willing to trust and follow those 46 SERP recipients. I am willing to subsidize LUMP SUM retirement options that some work groups get while others get crumbs. I am willing to believe a Pilot deserves more in pension payments for flying the auto-pilot controls, than the mechanic who maintains, inspects, and insures safety of those systems gets paid while still working on them 40 hour per week.

But I also remain a realist and the business philosophy of pounding away at blue collar workers wages and benefits to keep prices low, does have a familiar ring to it.

[post="279846"][/post]​

1. Everyone knows you can't compare AA to SW. SW cherry picks mostly in large U.S, cities. And they fly out of airports where it is cheap to do so. SW pays their AMTs top dollar because they farm out most of their heavy overhaul. They pay the "unskilled rampers" as you put it $25/hr ($5/hr more than AA pays me) because they have one fleet type and they turn those 737s very quickly. These are just a few reasons why SW is successful. AA and the other legacies have multiple fleet types, fly internationally (the yields on these tickets are higher), and operate out of expensive large city airports.

2. Overstaffed management- I agree. However this was not always the case. When I hired on in 1990, I was amazed at how little management there was in MIA. This was during the Crandall era and I got the impression he believed in minimum management staffing. When Carty took over, I remember quite clearly that the management ranks exploded. We had waaaay to many. Now that Arpey is the CEO, I have seen the management ranks shrink noticeably at my former city. As for Arpey, so far he hasn't done anything stupid like Carty did multiple times (MRTC, new seats, new interiors, new and large overhead bins, and TWA). In fact, he is trying to fix Carty's screwups by putting seats back in the planes and downsizing the weakest links in the system (STL, etc.). I don't trust anybody, but AA management has done a far better job than UA and US management in terms of implementing MANY changes in the operation which are paying off. It seems like the only thing UA and US management can do is go back to their employees multiple times to take more pay, pensions, etc. AA has had operating profits where the others have not; and AA does not have the advantage of being in bk.

3. And as for you subsidizing the "unskilled", this is not true. Just look to NW and your beloved AMFA. The NW AMTs swallowed this line of thinking hook, line, and sinker. If the AMTs subsidize "the unskilled", then why are all the NW rampers back at work making over $20/hr while half the NW AMTs are gone and the remaining half will be gone very soon. (Unless they submit to a 25% paycut and agree to the layoff of half of those who remain). This has proved and will prove that the ramp does not need the AMTs to make what they make. Your job can be sent overseas (as NW and UA have done) or done domestically at third party shops(like all other airlines have done;except AA). And line maintanence can be contracted out as well. When I worked at a line station, there were many companies that performed line mx. Ironically, at NW, it is the AMTs that need the rampers. Why? Because over time NW management has significantly reduced the numbers of their AMTs; thus they do not have the numbers to be effective and can be easily replaced. Why do you think that NW is so eager to start a 30 day cooling off period. They have said that they will fly through a strike and they have scabs ready to go. If the rampers were to walk, they could shut NW down because their are so many and can not be easily or quickly replaced. But given your and many other AMTs (especially AMFA) mentality that you subsidize "the unskilled" and the fact that the AMFA raided the IAM at NW, I would say that support(sympathy strike) from the "unskilled" at NW is far from assured.

 

[TWU informer]

You forgot to mention Southwest Mechanics are represented by AMFA, when you praised that Airline Business model.

And then in regular AMFA bashing fashion, you blamed the union for NWA mis-management and failing buiness model.

So let me see if I have it right, It is NOT AMFA's fault Southwest thrives, but it is AMFA fault NWA is failing? OK, I think I got it now. :blink:

You need to apply for a management job at AA, your thinking is a perfect match for superior AA management performance. I predict you would reach top levels before you retire!

 

[aafsc]

You forgot to mention Southwest Mechanics are represented by AMFA, when you praised that Airline Business model.

And then in regular AMFA bashing fashion, you blamed the union for NWA mis-management and failing buiness model.

So let me see if I have it right, It is NOT AMFA's fault Southwest thrives, but it is AMFA fault NWA is failing? OK, I think I got it now. :blink:

You need to apply for a management job at AA, your thinking is a perfect match for superior AA management performance. I predict you would reach top levels before you retire!

[post="279870"][/post]​

I have no problem mentioning that the SW mechanics are represented by AMFA. By the way, did not the SW AMTs vote to extend the contract negotiated by the teamsters? If so, why? As for NW, they are just like the rest of the legacies. However, my main point was that NW management came up with this plan to get rid of as many AMTs as possible over time so that when the contract becomes amendable there will be so few left that they can be very easily replaced. What happened to that "iron clad" layoff protection AMFA said was there?And when they are replaced (or they capitulate to NW management's large concessionary demands), those "unskilled" rampers will still be there making what they are making. NW will be very interesting indeed! At UA, AMFA and it's supporters blamed bankruptcy for the concessionary contract it now has (even though they said they would be better off in bk). At NW,AMFA is already offering a 16% paycut (I thought they don't negotiate concessions) NW wants 25% and even more layoffs and they aren't even in bankruptcy. I can't wait to hear AMFA's excuse this time!

 

[Hackman]

QUIT! or quit bit@hing please!!!

[post="279820"][/post]​

The old saying goes, if you don't like the program, change the channel. There are threads here that I don't don't read, or comment on.

Since US Aviation decided to remove the the union area, you have to put up with us unionists, sorry we will not quit, that would be the easy way out.

 

[Hackman]

I have no problem mentioning that the SW mechanics are represented by AMFA. By the way, did not the SW AMTs vote to extend the contract negotiated by the teamsters? If so, why? As for NW, they are just like the rest of the legacies. However, my main point was that NW management came up with this plan to get rid of as many AMTs as possible over time so that when the contract becomes amendable there will be so few left that they can be very easily replaced. What happened to that "iron clad" layoff protection AMFA said was there?And when they are replaced (or they capitulate to NW management's large concessionary demands), those "unskilled" rampers will still be there making what they are making. NW will be very interesting indeed! At UA, AMFA and it's supporters blamed bankruptcy for the concessionary contract it now has (even though they said they would be better off in bk). At NW,AMFA is already offering a 16% paycut (I thought they don't negotiate concessions) NW wants 25% and even more layoffs and they aren't even in bankruptcy. I can't wait to hear AMFA's excuse this time!

[post="279880"][/post]​

SWA AMT's voted the contract extension in for one reason, the money. I'm sure you saw how long it took the SWA FA's to get a twu negotiated contract, over two years, and it still sucks. I have a full copy of it. Uncle Herb had to get involved in negotiations because the twu was "threatening a job action" (har, har, har). The newly rich twu believers in Tulsa were lined up out the credit union door after the twu tried to copy AMFA's NWA contract in 2001, which we all know set the bar at the time for M@R. You can't tell me the twu sellouts today wouldn't jump at the raises they offered at SWA during these rough times!! Ha! You'd get run over at the door trying to stop them from voting "YES"!!!! You'd be a damn twu believer speed bump. You even mention a few hours of overtime right now, and twu sucka$$es come out of the woodwork.

There are many points you fail to understand, or choose to ignore, Mr. Ramper.

The iam at US Air was the first to sellout to massive concessions, no less then three times. Then in 2003 the twu came and reduced 50 years of negotiations to a smoking pile of rubble with what I call the MOAAS (Mother of AAll Sellouts) and a new low was established for all other carriers to shoot for.

The iam at United had a SFO "No Concessions Rally" (Local Lodge 1781) on May 8, 2002, attended by iam "Fighting Machinists" International officers. Now according to you, these were all AMFA people right? Hmmm, I don't think so. On May 1 2003, UAL iam "Fighting Machinists" M@R voted to ratify the "Restucturing Agreement Amendment" that allowed the OAK and IMC Maintenance Bases to permanently close. No, the twu Maintenance Base lie is not true, here is the proof. AMFA defeated the iam on July 15, 2003. They inherited the iam's "scorched earth" unenforcable concessionary contract. The UAL M@R should have walked when the iam was in power, but the iam like the twu, will never call even a strike vote. Instead, the iam/UAL massive concession agreements were bought hook, line, and sinker. Now AMFA is left trying to fend off the devestation and the UAL concession sellouts the iam have negotiated for at UAL.

On NWA, this infamous rouge company is now demanding vital organs from their M@R workers, after sucking the blood out of them. They have violated the AMFA agreement 9 ways to Sunday, and AMFA has filed more force majeure cases and grievances than you could count. Maybe some of the twu's "Show Us the Shared Sacrifice" t-shirts will help? This company is simply engaged in union busting with the help of the goverment and the courts. If the twu was in power at NWA, they would have caved in a looooong time ago. One "BOO" from AA and Little is crying; "We're going in to Chapter 7!!!! You gotta take these concessions!!!!!" I guess Steenland feels since NWA management gave in to AMFA at the PEB with the best M@R contract ever in 2000, its now time to pass the twu at AA in the race to the bottom to redeem themselves. Now finally, AMFA offers a 16% paycut to trying to show good faith, and with a 2 year snap back. No sick time, vacation, holidays etc, etc, etc like the twu was so eager to give. Will NWA strike? Who knows. One thing I do know, with the industrial unions, a possible strike will NEVER happen!!!!!

The twu cowards and sellouts have nothing to say about any possible AMFA concessions....PERIOD!!!! The "Totally Worthless Union" has soldout for 23 years, no bankruptcy needed.
:down: :angry: :down: :angry:

 

[777 fixer]

1. Everyone knows you can't compare AA to SW. SW cherry picks mostly in large U.S, cities. And they fly out of airports where it is cheap to do so. SW pays their AMTs top dollar because they farm out most of their heavy overhaul. They pay the "unskilled rampers" as you put it $25/hr ($5/hr more than AA pays me) because they have one fleet type and they turn those 737s very quickly. These are just a few reasons why SW is successful. AA and the other legacies have multiple fleet types, fly internationally (the yields on these tickets are higher), and operate out of expensive large city airports.

2. Overstaffed management- I agree. However this was not always the case. When I hired on in 1990, I was amazed at how little management there was in MIA. This was during the Crandall era and I got the impression he believed in minimum management staffing. When Carty took over, I remember quite clearly that the management ranks exploded. We had waaaay to many. Now that Arpey is the CEO, I have seen the management ranks shrink noticeably at my former city. As for Arpey, so far he hasn't done anything stupid like Carty did multiple times (MRTC, new seats, new interiors, new and large overhead bins, and TWA). In fact, he is trying to fix Carty's screwups by putting seats back in the planes and downsizing the weakest links in the system (STL, etc.). I don't trust anybody, but AA management has done a far better job than UA and US management in terms of implementing MANY changes in the operation which are paying off. It seems like the only thing UA and US management can do is go back to their employees multiple times to take more pay, pensions, etc. AA has had operating profits where the others have not; and AA does not have the advantage of being in bk.

3. And as for you subsidizing the "unskilled", this is not true. Just look to NW and your beloved AMFA. The NW AMTs swallowed this line of thinking hook, line, and sinker. If the AMTs subsidize "the unskilled", then why are all the NW rampers back at work making over $20/hr while half the NW AMTs are gone and the remaining half will be gone very soon. (Unless they submit to a 25% paycut and agree to the layoff of half of those who remain). This has proved and will prove that the ramp does not need the AMTs to make what they make. Your job can be sent overseas (as NW and UA have done) or done domestically at third party shops(like all other airlines have done;except AA). And line maintanence can be contracted out as well. When I worked at a line station, there were many companies that performed line mx. Ironically, at NW, it is the AMTs that need the rampers. Why? Because over time NW management has significantly reduced the numbers of their AMTs; thus they do not have the numbers to be effective and can be easily replaced. Why do you think that NW is so eager to start a 30 day cooling off period. They have said that they will fly through a strike and they have scabs ready to go. If the rampers were to walk, they could shut NW down because their are so many and can not be easily or quickly replaced. But given your and many other AMTs (especially AMFA) mentality that you subsidize "the unskilled" and the fact that the AMFA raided the IAM at NW, I would say that support(sympathy strike) from the "unskilled" at NW is far from assured.

[post="279861"][/post]​

2)MRTC no longer makes sense in today's business climate. But it sure was nice having that extra room fly in non-rev ; ). As for TWA that definitely will go down as one of the biggest blunders ever to happen at AA.

I would not call putting in new interiors, seats and overhead bins a mistake. By the way those "new" overhead bins are not that new. There the original bins with extensions and new doors. So actually they are quite cost effective. When one compared the original interiors, seats and overhead bins on the MD-80(our workhorse) to the A320's and 737NG's our competitors are flying our planes were somewhat lacking. So in order to remain competitive with our rivals product AA really had no choice but to upgrade the interiors. You probably did not know this but starting early next year AA will begin putting in new biz class seats, improved IFE, new sidewall panels, and new overhead bins on our 767-300 fleet. Why, so we can be more competitive on international routes where our competitors fly A330/340 and 777's. So I guess Mr. Arpey is making the same "mistakes" that old Donny boy made.

3)One could make the same argument for the rampers/fleet service at AA needing the AMT's. Look at the number of fleet service workers laid off at AA who have been replaced by contract workers. Heck, I have'nt seen an AA cabin cleaner on nights in years. That's your "beloved" TWU at work.

Yes companies like NWA can send maintenance overseas as well as get third party outfits here to do it. While it may be impractical to send ramper/ fleet service jobs overseas it's quite easy to get a third party to come in and do it. Just look at AA, and Alaska.

< http://www.koin.com/news.asp?RECORD_KEY%5B...%5Bnews%5D=2861 >

You make it sound like the amnagement at NWA will run and hide if they go wind that the rampers were to strike. Is there anything in the way that NWA management has behaved recently that makes you believe that. Hell, there getting ready to do battle with the flight attendants. Given there history if they were to get wind of the rampers walking they would more than likely start linning up the scabs.

 

[aafsc]

2)MRTC no longer makes sense in today's business climate. But it sure was nice having that extra room fly in non-rev ; ). As for TWA that definitely will go down as one of the biggest blunders ever to happen at AA.

I would not call putting in new interiors, seats and overhead bins a mistake. By the way those "new" overhead bins are not that new. There the original bins with extensions and new doors. So actually they are quite cost effective. When one compared the original interiors, seats and overhead bins on the MD-80(our workhorse) to the A320's and 737NG's our competitors are flying our planes were somewhat lacking. So in order to remain competitive with our rivals product AA really had no choice but to upgrade the interiors. You probably did not know this but starting early next year AA will begin putting in new biz class seats, improved IFE, new sidewall panels, and new overhead bins on our 767-300 fleet. Why, so we can be more competitive on international routes where our competitors fly A330/340 and 777's. So I guess Mr. Arpey is making the same "mistakes" that old Donny boy made.

3)One could make the same argument for the rampers/fleet service at AA needing the AMT's. Look at the number of fleet service workers laid off at AA who have been replaced by contract workers. Heck, I have'nt seen an AA cabin cleaner on nights in years. That's your "beloved" TWU at work.

Yes companies like NWA can send maintenance overseas as well as get third party outfits here to do it. While it may be impractical to send ramper/ fleet service jobs overseas it's quite easy to get a third party to come in and do it. Just look at AA, and Alaska.

< http://www.koin.com/news.asp?RECORD_KEY%5B...%5Bnews%5D=2861 >

You make it sound like the amnagement at NWA will run and hide if they go wind that the rampers were to strike. Is there anything in the way that NWA management has behaved recently that makes you believe that. Hell, there getting ready to do battle with the flight attendants. Given there history if they were to get wind of the rampers walking they would more than likely start linning up the scabs.

[post="279962"][/post]​

1. While putting new interiors, seats, bins, carpet, etc. into our domestic fleet was intended to make us competitive, were the passengers willing to pay more? Given the fact that a vast majority just look at price, our airplanes would be just as full if we had not done the interior upgrades. As for the 767-300s, enhancing those may be justified because they fly international where the yields are higher and we have to compete against the foreign airlines as well as DL, UA, etc.

2. The TWU actually gave up midnite cabin in the late 1990s. They were having so many problems with theft that AA begged the TWU to take midnite cabin back; only to contract it out again in 2003. It is easier to replace the AMTs than it is to replace the ramp. At NW, over time, they have reduced their AMTs by about half so only about 4,000to 4,500 remain. And they want to cut the remaining 4,500 in half which means that they feel they only need 2,200. That 2,200 can be easily replaced by the management people they are training and scabs (newhires, those currently there who will cross, and those laid off who feel they were screwed by AMFA). There are plenty of out of work AMTs. Just look at all those former UA AMTs in IND who were shaking their fists in the air when they were making $30/hr at UA but are now humbly working at AAR in IND in the same hangar on the same UA planes for the same UA managers for a LOT less. As far as ramp, the contractors are having a very difficult time finding people because of low wages and no benefits and a vast majority can't pass the drug tests and backgroud checks. In fact, at my previous station, they came over and asked if we wanted to work for them on our days off. Needless to say, no one was interested. So if the ramp was to walk, they would have to hire and process(backgroud and medical check, drug test, and finerprints for customs) and train (classroom portion and government mandated dangerous goods and hazardous awareness training) thousands of people all at once. Over at USAir, they gave the company everything it wanted. Large numbers of their long time employees have left or are leaving and they are having problems finding people to replace them. At my former city,US was right next to us and I can tell you they were (and probably still are) having big service problems with passenger baggage. So they can try to replace ramp but it would take a long time and be very very messy because when the ramp walks the crap hits the fan right of way.

 

[eolesen]

1. While putting new interiors, seats, bins, carpet, etc. into our domestic fleet was intended to make us competitive, were the passengers willing to pay more? Given the fact that a vast majority just look at price, our airplanes would be just as full if we had not done the interior upgrades. As for the 767-300s, enhancing those may be justified because they fly international where the yields are higher and we have to compete against the foreign airlines as well as DL, UA, etc.

[post="280067"][/post]​

Sorry, but the interiors needed to be replaced, and customers were telling us that on a regular basis. It wasn't a matter of being competitive -- having worked in planning for cabin service, there was only so much mileage we could get out of the tri-bar/blue dobby interiors which dated back to the late 1980's. It was bad enough that we kept it pretty much the same for 10 years...

Upholstery and carpet is replaced on a regular basis with new material, so what does it matter if it is the old pattern or a new pattern? The cost of putting new plastic trim in place is also minimal when done in conjunction with a C check when just about everything is being pulled out anyway.

 

[TWU informer]

Sorry, but the interiors needed to be replaced, and customers were telling us that on a regular basis. It wasn't a matter of being competitive -- having worked in planning for cabin service, there was only so much mileage we could get out of the tri-bar/blue dobby interiors which dated back to the late 1980's. It was bad enough that we kept it pretty much the same for 10 years...

Upholstery and carpet is replaced on a regular basis with new material, so what does it matter if it is the old pattern or a new pattern? The cost of putting new plastic trim in place is also minimal when done in conjunction with a C check when just about everything is being pulled out anyway.

[post="280140"][/post]​

Customers would also tell you they want FREE tickets for SUPERIOR service.

We could arrange that also I bet.

 

[eolesen]

Customers would also tell you they want FREE tickets for SUPERIOR service.

We could arrange that also I bet.

[post="280141"][/post]​

Whatever.... I guess in your eyes customers aren't worth listening to.

The fact still stands that the interiors were the same for about 15 years, and they needed a facelift.

 

[aafsc]

Sorry, but the interiors needed to be replaced, and customers were telling us that on a regular basis. It wasn't a matter of being competitive -- having worked in planning for cabin service, there was only so much mileage we could get out of the tri-bar/blue dobby interiors which dated back to the late 1980's. It was bad enough that we kept it pretty much the same for 10 years...

Upholstery and carpet is replaced on a regular basis with new material, so what does it matter if it is the old pattern or a new pattern? The cost of putting new plastic trim in place is also minimal when done in conjunction with a C check when just about everything is being pulled out anyway.

[post="280140"][/post]​

You are right about the upholstery and carpets being replaced on a regular basis and being cheap (ultracleans). But those new side panels are not cheap and the new seats (the whole assembly) designed by the person who designs the seats in luxury cars was also not cheap. You say that passengers told AA that they wanted these improvements. But they also want 1960s style airline service for SW prices.

 

[Buck]

Sorry, but the interiors needed to be replaced, and customers were telling us that on a regular basis. It wasn't a matter of being competitive -- having worked in planning for cabin service, there was only so much mileage we could get out of the tri-bar/blue dobby interiors which dated back to the late 1980's. It was bad enough that we kept it pretty much the same for 10 years...

Upholstery and carpet is replaced on a regular basis with new material, so what does it matter if it is the old pattern or a new pattern? The cost of putting new plastic trim in place is also minimal when done in conjunction with a C check when just about everything is being pulled out anyway.

[post="280140"][/post]​

The plastic trim is not being replaced in the MD80's! In fact not much of anything is being replaced with new. The old parts are being repaired if possible.

Have you visited a MD80 Heavy C check recently or at all?