More European Expansion?

[Dilligas]

The folks over in China take extreme pride in their work, work extremely long hours (6 day work week), enjoy working, do not engage in the antics that are constantly seen in the airline business, and are extremely entrepreneurial. Their working conditions are quite high actually - certainly no different than many U.S. companies.

Itrade,

First, being a dog lover, great new avatar. For those that don't know, that basset is Mr. Jeffries, who has the claim to Bassetdom's biggest ears.

As far as what you said about working conditions, labor in China, and how happy they are with their lot...

I believe you have written one of the most insensitive, and misguided posts I've read. I don't expect you to understand, or "get it", but I find that attitude repulsive, insulting to all working people, and callous.

And yes, large parts of industrial America would love to make US companies and labor relations exactly what they are in China. Industrial slavery is so much more economical than those pesky "rights" that Americans claim.

I have no doubt China will be the most powerful economic force on earth before long, if they are not close to it now. For you to speak of the Chinese model in such terms turns my stomach.

Thumbs down on that one. :down:

 

[Dilligas]

I'm sure they love their jobs...


"Researchers from the two Hong Kong-based non-governmental organizations investigated factories of four major shoe subcontractors in China located in the Pearl River Delta in southern China. These factories produce mostly for Nike and Reebok. Most of the workers in the Pearl River Delta are peasants who come from rural areas of other provinces, and 90 percent of them are women 17 to 23 years old. Investigators found that practices and conditions at all factories in the survey systematically and grossly violated Nike's and Reebok's own codes of conduct and Chinese labor law. The report's findings include: that factories set the "normal" work day as 11-12 hours, and then add 2-5 hours of additional overtime work; most workers are not even given their pay stubs, making it difficult for them to understand what hours they were paid for and at what rate; and workers lost their fingers in machines, fainted due to heat and fumes, and one even worker died from inhaling poisonous chemicals. "


http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/swatch/newsl...etters/3_3.html

 

[PITbull]

That ITRADE huh? Always doing his homework...LOL.....



Thanks Dilligas for bringing it "front and center" and making it clear that we Americans truly live IN THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD... SECOND TO ABSOLUTELY... NONE!!!

 

[Dea Certe]

Itrade,

You ask good questions. They are the ones I do think about often. What would I do? Wolf did start out right; he cleaned up our airplanes, upgraded our levels of service to appeal to the business travelers and put into place a delicious frequent flyer program. All good things but what he didn't do was take care of the flawed internal structure.

First, I'd like to understand what our niche is and then go after it. On the East Coast it should be the business travelers. Give them a break and rationalize the fares. The airline industry has been gouging them for years and they are sick of it.

Rationalize the fleet. I don't particularly like the Airbus for many reasons but it seems to make the most people comfortable.

I don't understand the wholly-owneds but it seems we should put them under one umbrella. There's too many contracts, too many fleet types and it's confusing and frustrating for our customers.

We've cut to the bone employee-wise so I'd reconsider staffing. Airlines are a labor intensive business. Many hands are needed to keep the aircraft operating, that's just the way it is. We are dealing with people and people need assistance. We also have an obligation to safety. Third-party might sound good on paper but in reality it's a formula for disaster.

Upgrade all the computers. The stuff we work with now is absolutely ancient by cyber standards. There's programs out there that are user friendly and would enhance our ability to meet the needs of our customers. The kiosks are a good idea but still need to have kinks worked out.

Declare peace with the labor force. We've given our fair share and continue to do what we can to keep our customers coming back. That needs to be recognized. Please don't insult me with "Cash Cow" ideas so I can sell stuff to our customers. They don't like it. Employees are human too. We get sick, sometimes we get injured. Take care of an employee when s/he's ailing and you'll have a loyal employee for life.

Inflight food for sale is OK. Just OK. We need to find a better way to do it. I would suggest coupon books for sale in $5 denominations. These books could be purchased and the coupons used for drinks, headsets and meals. Offer comped books to valued customers. I'm afraid I have to agree with limited choices as it gets too expensive.

Rethink the hubs. PHL is a nightmare due to many factors. Would it be possible to funnel connections through PIT? What not a Florida hub? The weather is better most of the time. I still don't understand why the TPA maintenance base was closed. (People that know can PM me with that)

Itrade, that's all I have off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more rattling around up there. I want to be proud of this airline. I firmly believe we have potential to great. I don't want to see it squandered. What ideas do you have?

Dea

 

[Dilligas]

Don't ever tell me that China should be a model for the US in anything... I'm really distressed that people can pretend not to know how bad things are in China for all but the elite, and that this is some's vision for America.


--------------------------------------------
<<<<excerpt>>>>>>

Chinese Sweatshops Thriving on U.S. Contracts
NewsMax.com
Monday, Oct. 9, 2000

Dozens of U.S. companies have been using brutal prison-like Chinese sweatshops to manufacture their products, investigators charge.
In a blistering report that details the coolie-labor practices of a host of Chinese factories making goods for American companies, the National Labor Committee (NLC), a New York anti-sweatshop group, exposed the shocking labor abuses in a dozen factories.

"For years, U.S. companies have claimed that their mere presence in China would help open that society to democratic values," NLC’s report began. "But this recent in-depth investigation of 16 factories in China shows that U.S. companies including Wal-Mart, Nike, Huffy and others and their contractors in China are actively involved in the systematic denial of worker rights."

The report zeroed in on wages and the fact that North American companies say they and their factory contractors in China pay decent subsistence wages, wages which are very competitive given the low cost of living in China.

The NLC report counters: "Twenty-five cents an hour is not enough. The wages in China’s export assembly industry do provide a subsistence level existence – if it is meant in the sense that VF/H.H. Cutler’s CEO said of the 28-cent-an-hour wages they paid in Haiti: ‘Well, the workers are alive aren’t they? So they must be subsistence wages.’

"This is exactly the point. The factory workers in China do survive on their wages, because they work 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week during peak seasons, often with just one day off a month. They survive because most factory workers are migrants from rural areas who, once they arrive at the factory are housed 10 to 20 people to one small, crowded company dorm room.

"For the years they are at the factory, their "home" is a 2½ by 2½ by 6½-foot space on a metal bunk bed. They subsist on two or three dismal meals a day.

"The North American companies want us to think of these workers as individuals, young people out on a lark, traveling to the cities to try their hand at industry. This is untrue. They are working to help their families survive back home. They need to save to send money home. And those who are lucky enough to come from families who are not living at the edge of abject poverty need to save money for what comes afterwards, since no one lasts more than three to four years in these factories, given the grueling overtime hours and harsh conditions."

Can you live on the 25-cent-an-hour wages U.S. companies and their factory contractors pay in China, which come to about $65 a month?

---------------

Complete Story: http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/10/8/213305

--------

Ok, I'm off my soapbox and done with this off topic rant.

 

[Dilligas]

I still don't understand why the TPA maintenance base was closed.

Dea Certe,

There are those that would believe that the sole reason for the closing of TPA was a pre-emptive move to the company's weak argument that they have nowhere to do the Airbus HM.

In my opinion, management had planned to farmout this work from day one. I also believe that Wolf & Gangwal believed this would be United's problem and they never planned on Airbus HM being done at U.

When the wedding was cancelled, and the time frame was approaching to get this work planned, to strengthen the company's incredulous position, some maintenance locations had to go. TPA was a victim of this, in my opinion.

Key maintenance people were let go this year and and/or are leaving by the end of the year. I suspect the company does not want them around to be examined on these issues under oath and penalty of perjury.

 

[PITbull]

Dea,

Great, great ideas and resolutions you have brought forward.

Succinct, to the point, very doable, and well thought out.

 

[MarkMyWords]

I agree that Dea has some wonderful ideas.....but there is a problem. M-O-N-E-Y.

Rationalizing fares is a given but how do you raise leisure fares while reducing business fares and remain competitive? I am sure every trunk carrier is dealing with this issue and can't seem to come up with an answer.

Rationailze the fleet. That was the main objective in the Airbus order. But how do we go out and get more Airbuses and get rid of the Boeings? It costs money to get more airplanes. We have negotiated some very good rates on the boeings.

Combine the Wholly Owned express. Excellent point. Why maintain 3 seperate "sub" airlines? You have redundancies in each that could be eliminated for a cost savings. The only reason I think they don't do it is because they can pit one airline against another when it comes to employee negotiations. If there was only 1 wholly owned, how could the company use threats of farming out PSA flying to Piedmont and Allegheny and vice vers?

Staffing issues. That is a toughy. I agree that we are always staffing for the perfect operation and we always operate irregularly. There is always going to be weather, atc, maintenance, etc except when you are an analyist in a cubical. That seems to be the only time that things run perfectly, when they are on paper. I agree that nearly evey department is working with barebone minimums, but adding staffing adds costs. You would have to be very careful here.

Upgrading the computers. Yet another great idea, but again there is a money issue. How long have we heard about gate readers, yet they never materialize? Kiosks are the mechanical agents of the millenium, yet during irregularities they are nearly useless. SABRE was a mistake that set us back eons in technology. We are still investing in additional "service upgrades" but only if they promise to generate revenue. We have made tremendous strides in this area, but for every step we take forward, other carriers are starting the next race. Again, it boils down to money.

Amen about declaring peace with labor. You have beat this pinata until every piece of candy is gone. To continue to beat it serves no purpose but to expend energy needlessly. It is time to let labor in on the master plan. Give us focus, direction, goals, motivation, incentive, honesty, empowerment and most of all respect. You will get much more out of this group of employees if you treat them honestly, fairly and respect what they have given.

With regards to inflight food sales and ammenities, I think the kiosks will eventually be able to sell food vouchers that can be used to purchase BOB meals. As you stated, making them in 5.00 increments would allow you to purchase alcohol, headsets or meals with the vouchers. That is probably a programming issue with Kiosks, but I think it is already in the works.

Rethinking the hubs.....agreed. Redesigning how we hub is probably going to be more likely then shifting flights back to PIT. I think that is a sad reality. We need to stop accepting "well, that is PHL" as an excuse and get to the core of the problems there. Once we stop accepting the PHL factor as an excuse and start really working on the issues, then we may be in a better place. To date the solutions for PHL have involved throwing more levels of management at the problems, but they are not addressing the real issues. Stop adding layers of management in PHL, that is not that answer.

You also talked about Steve and his appearence standards and I think that is one of the first things that needs to be readdressed. If we are going ot have to spend money to make money, then we need to do it in areas that will generate additional revenue. First, get the airplanes back up to standards. Wolf did a great job refurbishing the DC9's and 732's when they were showing their age. Well it is time to get these airplanes back in and get them cleaned up. I remember having a DC9 grounded because the reflective material in the bathroom mirrors were pitted and falling off around the edges. The mirrors had to be replaced or the airplane would not fly again. This is a bit drastic, but serves as a goal to remember....if the planes look shotty on the inside, it will lead customers to wonder how well we are maintaining what they don't see. Second, put the class back in first class. You can't sell upgrades to a premium seat if you have taken all the ammenities away.

Dea, I hope that you don't think I am ripping on your ideas, because they are all excellent. The biggest problem is doing all those things, and making a profit. I do agree that there are things that we need to spend money on in order to make money. Image, service, comfort and ease should be the top priorities.

If I were king for a day, the first thing I would do is talk to people like AOG who actually know where the cost savings and problems are. I don't mean listen to the whiners that b*tch and complain all the time, but the people, like yourself, that have excellent insight into what you do daily and how it could be done better. You know could be done to make things more productive for your department. You know what can be done to eliminate waste. By getting your input and involvement in solving the problems, you become a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

 

[delldude]

US AIRWAYS RESTRUCTURES AIRCRAFT PURCHASE AGREEMENTS
ARLINGTON, Va., Jan. 31, 2003 -- US Airways and Airbus have reached an agreement in principle to restructure US Airways' existing orders for A330 and A320 family aircraft. The new agreement will enable US Airways to complement its existing fleet of A330-300 aircraft with A330-200 aircraft, and better match its future fleet of A320 family aircraft for domestic single-aisle operations. It would substitute a new firm order for 10 A330-200 aircraft and 19 A320 family aircraft for existing firm orders of one Airbus A330-300 and 37 A320 family aircraft.

."We have a great partnership with Airbus, as demonstrated by this agreement," said US Airways President and Chief Executive Officer David Siegel. "Long-term, we see Airbus playing an important role in our company's future, and this agreement confirms our commitment to begin taking delivery of new aircraft once we are in a better financial position."

Separately, US Airways has filed a motion with the bankruptcy court seeking relief from lease obligations from a variety of financial institutions for up to 29 A320 family aircraft currently operating in the US Airways fleet. If granted, this will give the airline significant flexibility to complete lease restructuring negotiations and determine the final make-up of it fleet upon emergence from bankruptcy.

As part of the company's current fleet plan, US Airways will continue to operate no fewer than 279 aircraft upon emergence from bankruptcy.

 

[PITbull]

Markmywords,

Your statment: there are things that we need to spend money on in order to make money.


PITbull comments: If I am not mistaken, we discussed that very issue some time ago in the "negative air" post. At that time, you did not agree, and said we still had to reduce costs.

Glad to see you finally are approaching a 360 on that issue.

 

[stoopidute442]

If I were king for a day, the first thing I would do is talk to people like AOG who actually know where the cost savings and problems are. I don't mean listen to the whiners that b*tch and complain all the time, but the people, like yourself, that have excellent insight into what you do daily and how it could be done better. You know could be done to make things more productive for your department. You know what can be done to eliminate waste. By getting your input and involvement in solving the problems, you become a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

Mark....thats why we have an employee suggestion program. Every now and then when i need a good laugh i head on over and read some of the suggestions. The good ones are all answered with "out of scope" or "not accepted. They changed the page around a bit so you cant see all the suggestions that have been submitted...the company probably had to give c.p.r to too many employees after reading them and not being able to breathe from laughing so hard.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

Mark....thats why we have an employee suggestion program. Every now and then when i need a good laugh i head on over and read some of the suggestions. The good ones are all answered with "out of scope" or "not accepted. They changed the page around a bit so you cant see all the suggestions that have been submitted...the company probably had to give c.p.r to too many employees after reading them and not being able to breathe from laughing so hard.

Unfortunate you have that view of employee suggestions.At American we have a program called "IdeAAs that fly",and there is a 777 flying around that employee cost reduction suggestions paid for.

Even more remarkable, that aircraft was delivered pre 9/11,joining the 757 that employee cost saving suggestions paid for several years earlier.

You are right though, what do people who actually work in the operational side of the business know about useful cost saving ideas? :blink:

 

[AOG-N-IT]

Itrade,

You physically sicken me.!!! To try to justify how China treats it's average citizen...and how it floods our market with products produced in near slave labor conditions , yet massive profit yields is simply appauling !!

PORTION DELETED BY MODERATOR. It's all about me in your world isn't it? Well Buddy..it's going to be all about you when this economy completely tanks...and what was middle America rises up out of the newly created "Hoovervilles" and starts taking its frustraitions out on people of your ilk. Remember this happened after WW1..and that same anger burns today.

By the way....the productivity of the American workforce is at all time highs according to recent reports. This is due in part to more work be performed by fewer people , But then again un-employment is at all time highs too.


We have no problems with people performing...and performing for a living wage...it's people like you that know no limits on profiting that have ruined things.....as long as I get mine...and continue to get mine , it's all OK Right?? To hell with your fellow man Right?

I know...as long as I can profit , fly about the world ..and tell the working man how thankfull we should be to simply have a job of any discription...everythings just hunky doory in your world....until the Enrons and Tyco scenarios of greed ruin that for your type too.

The only thing you are right about in drawing a comparison between us and China is this..they do have over a billion people...and they also encourage sterilization and limiting births....PORTION DELETED BY MODERATOR

 

[ITRADE]

OK there AOG, if you want to talk about worker activities and treatment, take a walk along any tomato field or orange grove in California. There are many parts of the U.S.A. that are no better than any number of countries around the world.

And when I was speaking of the PRC labor market, I was not speaking of the shops in Guandong or Hainan. There certainly are labor and employment abuses there. So to are there abuses in any number of spots in the United States. So, don't give me this holier than thou crap.

And, have you evern been to China?????? Have you ever seen their factories or industrial plants? Have you ever talked to their workers over a serving of Sichuan hot-pot. I'll bet you haven't.

American labor is more productive because automation, better work rules, and improved worker utilization is in place - not because the unions have made it better. To the contrary. I work with one of the largest steel manufacturers in the United States. It has the highest worker per ton utilization of any company in the USA. It is also one of the safest steel producers in the USA. It is also one of the few profitable manufacturers around. And guess what, not a SINGLE union member on the premises.

Some of the crummy, inefficient rules that have hindered U.S. growth can be directly attributed to the labor contracts put into place. Take the steel mill again:

when the tap on the steel ladle cracks or needs replacement, under union regs it required FOUR different sets of work groups to replace the item - a pipe fitter, an engineer, a steel worker, and one other group. Generally, the job took about 6 to 7 hours with all four groups. Today, it takes 1 to 2 people a total of 45 minutes.

As to unemployment levels, its clear that you do not know your PORTION DELETED BY MODERATOR and are completely shooting from the hip without knowing a single fact.

The current, seasonaly adjusted unemployment rate currently stands at 6.1%. The level is equal to the 6.1% level experienced in the summer of 1994. It certainly is not "at all time highs too." And its much lower than in the early 80s, 1975, 1958, etc. So, please check your facts.

 

[BillLumbergh]

We're off topic and need to get back on topic.

Further economic/sociological debates can be made elsewhere and will not be entertained here.