Midwest Hub/focus City

[El Gato]

A midwest hub? Gee, real bright thinking folks. Go put a hub somewhere not taken, as in ORD, DFW, or IAH and try to get the money of all those hayseeds who are already loyal to WN. Hehe, real smart. You can call it the "fly over hub" since it is in the middle of the fly over country.

Here is a smarter and wiser course of action. Try putting a hub in a place where people actually live and actually WANT to go to, no just thru! Sorry to dissapoint you, but the vast majority of air travelers out there are not really interested in going to or thru Redneck International Airport(RIA). It is not the garden spot of the universe there, or the most important place either. Placing a hub in such worldly places as "Dayton" or "Oklahoma" is a quick way to kill your business.

Some options: Wait for UA to drop dead - they are working on it very hard right now - and pick up ORD or DEN. Or, take an underused east coast airport in a major city and siphon traffic from there.

If you need any proof that small midwestern city hubs don't work, ask the folks at HP about CMH. Or any old EA folks about MCI.

 

[Hope777]

Bluestreak, I'm sure those Air Whisky Employees are making more then the out station employee at USAirways. Only the employees in Hubs make any kind of money.

 

[eolesen]

As for DFW (and Former ModerAAtor can correct me if my information is wrong), I understand that we and everyone else in terminal B will be moving to terminal E where DAL had their hub operation. Seems that AMR is moving the Eagle operation to B.

[post="279516"][/post]​

That's pretty much what I've heard. Since nobody took up DFW on their incentive offer for basically free rent, the remaining carriers in B (US, HP, CO, UA) are supposed to be moving over to Terminal E or into the space being vacated by LH, BA, Korean, etc.

If Eagle moves into B, the north satellite at A can be torn down or turned into a support building. Under the agreement with the airport, it is supposed to be closed down as a passenger terminal once Terminal D opens.

 

[mrfish3726]

MERGER with Frontier, that WILL NEVER HAPPEN! What some people don't realize is that Frontier here in Denver is a company thats almost like a family. Many of us have worked here with the same folks for MANY years or at other carriers like Continental, and old Frontier. Besides having a customer niche here in Denver we got a niche that won't allow any kind of merger.

Frontier doesn't have their sights on becoming a huge company like SWA. And I am SURE that EVERYONE who works here that worked at places like US AIR, or UniTED know full weel that they are much happier working at F9 that any other carrier.

 

[deltawatch]

Keep an eye on Northwest. MSP - DTW hubs and flights to Asia. US-HP-NW would have the GLOBE covered. Didn't CFO Cohen land over there?

 

[sfb]

What stations in the midwest does Air Wisconsin operate? I think we are forgetting all the free expansion in the midwest we will be getting when the air whiskey partnership takes effect. I believe (pulling this out of my a$$) air whiskey has express stations in Appleton, Green Bay, Aspen, Jackson Hole, Fargo, ect, ect... All these staions are staffed by low cost express employees and have been up and running for years. These are cities U and U Express will be able to expand service to with no start up costs. Am I wrong? There are close to a million people within a 40 minute drive of Appleton Airport. That's just one of many new markets that will come available.

The problem with this theory is that passengers in all of those cities with Air Wisconsin-operated stations have far less loyalty to the "Air Wisconsin" brand than the "United Express" brand. And it would be impossible to offer them the same sort of connectivity options available from ORD and DEN via the Existing HelPUS hubs or via a new hub unless the merged company could instantaneously start up a new hub with 200 daily flights to most of the major U.S. cities. Who would fly GRB-CLT-LAX or JAC-PHX-JFK or FAR-STL-PHL-BOS if other options on other airlines were available?

 

[KCFlyer]

A midwest hub? Gee, real bright thinking folks. Go put a hub somewhere not taken, as in ORD, DFW, or IAH and try to get the money of all those hayseeds who are already loyal to WN. Hehe, real smart. You can call it the "fly over hub" since it is in the middle of the fly over country.

[post="279685"][/post]​

Yep...us rubes in MCI don't want a hub...makes the cost of flying too high. But here's a thought...All us rubes who are catching flights on WN in "fly over country" must be adding something to their bottom line...they are making a profit. Perhaps a good strategy would be to stop in every once in a while...our money spends just as well as west/east coast money.

 

[dfw79]

Piney, OKC was talked about for years for Piedmont prior to being purchased by USAir. I do not know if we need another Hub, but a LGA operation should not be ruled out. With two 9800ft R/W and a 7800ft R/W the layout should be able to support a Focus City.

[post="279677"][/post]​

The overall layout of the airport is actually pretty decent to keep traffic flowing. The master plan for the airport includes a third parallel runway on the east side of the airport and the ability to add a mid field terminal due south of the existing facility (sorta like CVG). The new terminal has the first 17-18 gates completed, but they are waiting on starting on the east concourse which will add another 8-10 gates. Weather wise its not too bad...except for a couple days out of the year and the occassional ice storm in the winter. Facility also has on site heavy mx with AAR, just incase - not sure how that would work...but it may be a factor.

There have been rumblings in the newspaper about expanded operations of the comdined US/HP in OKC.

Lady did an article in the Daily Oklhoman. Alas it is a pay site, soneone sent me the clipping. Sounds like pure speculation or a trial balloon by the powers that be in OKC.

OKC on the surface sounds interesting. BUT SWA has a significant presense there IIRC.

Southwest appears to be pulling back again. They were up to 24 flights at one point but now they are down to: DAL - 5, HOU - 4, MCI - 4, PHX - 3, STL -2, and one Sat only LAS flight. American is really the one to worry about in OKC from what I can tell. However, Allegiant, Frontier, and America West seem to be doing well since coming in.

As far as the article in the Oklahoman - I think the speculation is based more so on additional flights from the US Airways network than a hub/focus city. Could a focus city work here? Perhaps. The entire area is growing with OKC itself growing nearly 5% in the last 4 years.

 

[El Gato]

All us rubes who are catching flights on WN in "fly over country" must be adding something to their bottom line...they are making a profit.

[post="279700"][/post]​

They ARE making money, but it sure as hell is not off of the midwest. Texas, Chicagoland, and CA/AZ/NV are the bread and butter markets for WN. Planes are full, people are paying the full walk up fares. At MCI and STL and the others, midwesterners are scraping enough dough together just to get that wonderous $99 fare when it is actually available(rarely). The midwest is not a high yield market, because the local residents are not high yield themselves.

Perhaps a good strategy would be to stop in every once in a while...our money spends just as well as west/east coast money.

[post="279700"][/post]​

True, a reasonable amount of STOPOVERS and commuter flights are the ideal for the smaller places in the midwest. But trying to put a hub in a city? like MCI is just insane. A nice place I am sure, but not exactly flooding with air travelers. When it comes down to it, there are only four cities in the midwest that need to have hubs: DFW, IAH, ORD, MSP. MCI and STL and the rest are just too small to generate appreciable revenue.

Yes, your money is just as good as everyone elses. But don't let it go to your head.

 

[KCFlyer]

The midwest is not a high yield market, because the local residents are not high yield themselves.

[post="279706"][/post]​

Check out the per captia income stats for Johnson County, Kansas.

 

[firstamendment]

The United States has a few too many hubs right now as it is and the fiddlers at HP/US are actually discussing establishing yet another hub somewhere in the midwest?

Like it or not, we currently have plenty of overcapacity in the market for domestic  hub/spoke legacy airline seats.  Some hub reductions/closures have occurred over the past 10-15 years (DAY, PIT, IND, STL, DFW(DL), BNA, SJC, RDU and a few others) but more must happen.

If the combined HP/US is to survive, it probably needs to reduce a few of its current hubs;  for a relatively small airline, HP/US has too many hubs.

[post="279603"][/post]​

What? There will only be 3 hubs..PHX, CLT, and PHL. LAS amd PIT will be mini-hubs. For a cross country airline, three hubs is not alot.

 

[El Gato]

Check out the per captia income stats for Johnson County, Kansas.

[post="279707"][/post]​

I just looked at it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_County%2C_Kansas

This is what you call good?

"As of the census² of 2000, there are 451,086 people..."

That may seem high to you, but it is abysmally low compared to other places.

"The per capita income for the county is $30,919."

It appears to be a enclave of the wealthy for the region. This is far outweighed by the simple fact that is far too few of them that make decent money. The vast majority of the populace is living in trailer parks and sending their kids to public schools.

Another factor to consider is that rich people don't ride WN. When they travel, they almost always stick to the legacy carriers. A good example of this in action is the impending Chapter 11 filing of Independance Air. They mistakenly thought(as have other carriers) that IAD is the sort of place to build a LCC hub. The areas near the airport have some of the highest earners in the nation - they aren't going to endure a flight sitting next to some smelly cletus just to save a bit of money. Different strokes...

Examine this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas%2C_Texas

Please note at the bottom the list of corporations present there. Now, I am certain you will say that MCI has some too, and that is true. But for sheer size and power, they do not compare. Places like DFW, IAH, and ORD are the true cities of the midwest. The rest are like oasis in a desert.

 

[KCFlyer]

I just looked at it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_County%2C_Kansas

This is what you call good?

"As of the census² of 2000, there are 451,086 people..."

That may seem high to you, but it is abysmally low compared to other places.

"The per capita income for the county is $30,919."

It appears to be a enclave of the wealthy for the region. This is far outweighed by the simple fact that is far too few of them that make decent money. The vast majority of the populace is living in trailer parks and sending their kids to public schools.

Another factor to consider is that rich people don't ride WN. When they travel, they almost always stick to the legacy carriers. A good example of this in action is the impending Chapter 11 filing of Independance Air. They mistakenly thought(as have other carriers) that IAD is the sort of place to build a LCC hub. The areas near the airport have some of the highest earners in the nation - they aren't going to endure a flight sitting next to some smelly cletus just to save a bit of money. Different strokes...

Examine this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas%2C_Texas

Please note at the bottom the list of corporations present there. Now, I am certain you will say that MCI has some too, and that is true. But for sheer size and power, they do not compare. Places like DFW, IAH, and ORD are the true cities of the midwest. The rest are like oasis in a desert.

[post="279718"][/post]​

Please don't misunderstand...I don't WANT a hub at MCI, as I said, that would put the cost of flying out of reach of many (just ask someone in MSP or DFW who has to go outside the WA states) but you are looking at half the Kansas City population there...(Kansas City is in Missouri and Kansas). It's just a suburb. A fairly wealthy suburb. And I assure you, a very large number of the population make up those passengers on the Southwest flights out of here. $30 grand for every man, woman, and child (and there are a helluva lot of children...what I will call "future customers) ain't bad.

FWIW, when my mom had emergency surgery last year, I had to fly last minute from MCI to Dallas. AA (and Delta at the time) wanted $870 for the ticket. I flew Southwest and two-stepped thru Tulsa on the way down - walking off one plane and boarding the next (total ground time...about 10 minutes). Full fare, fully refundable tickets for $400. On my return trip thru OKC, there were about 40 of us, most dressed in rather nice suits, who walked from the DAL-OKC gate over to the OKC-MCI gate to check in. That many "cleetuses" were two stepping with me.

I'm thankful that you hold such a low opinion of residents of the midwest. It means you're less likely ever to visit. And from what I read on this board, that's a blessing for our fine cities.

 

[ClueByFour]

Another factor to consider is that rich people don't ride WN. When they travel, they almost always stick to the legacy carriers. A good example of this in action is the impending Chapter 11 filing of Independance Air. They mistakenly thought(as have other carriers) that IAD is the sort of place to build a LCC hub. The areas near the airport have some of the highest earners in the nation - they aren't going to endure a flight sitting next to some smelly cletus just to save a bit of money. Different strokes...

[post="279718"][/post]​

Few questions:

Want to tell me why a rich guy flying out of DCA to half of anywhere on US on an RJ is any different than a guy flying out of IAD to half of anywhere on an RJ? 10 or 100 grand a year, the barbie jets suck equally.

Secondly, you really need to get around the country a bit more. Go hang out at DAL and count the suits versus cletuses riding over to HOU. Or, head on out to LAX and watch the number of folks heading to LAS on WN with thousands upon thousands stuffed into their carryon. Good friend of mine (who also happens to have won a few million bucks playing tournament poker) rides back and forth from LAX/OAK/SJC and LAS on WN, and he's not alone.

Even outside the high traffic corridors, the dometic flying experience is probably going to involve an RJ a great percentage of the time--I'd rather two-hop on WN than pull an RJ to RJ connection. I'm not rich, but I'm certainly not on the bottom end of the Mesa payscale, either .

 

[FWAAA]

What? There will only be 3 hubs..PHX, CLT, and PHL. LAS amd PIT will be mini-hubs. For a cross country airline, three hubs is not alot.

[post="279710"][/post]​

Calling them "mini-hubs" doesn't change the fact that five hubs (two near the west coast and three others closer to the east coast) is an awful lot for such a small airline. And adding a midwest hub makes six. Given that there aren't any high O&D midwestern cities left that aren't already hubs for someone else, adding yet another hub is evidence that someone at HP/US isn't keeping focused on the ball.