Merge anyone know about this

[767jetz]

Did they stop operating a schedule at some point? Were they existing or functioning at the time?

Yes, they both stopped operating. The old USAirways and America West stopped operating the day you guys merged, and th new USAirways picked up where it left off. Yes, Yes, I know... same operating certificates, etc.etc... But that's all semantics.

Whatever, Nostradamus. 🙄 You are entitled to your opinion as well. Just like a$$es... everyone's got one, right? If you feel the need to have the last word, have at it. I'm done.

Cheers,
767jetz

 

[767jetz]

Oops. One final thought... Before you throw the "hypocrite" name around, you should look in the mirror. By your assertion, if there were a UA/B6 merger (hypothetically speaking of course)and the integration was DOH/length of service, 90% of the B6 pilots would be junior to 95% of the UA pilots. One of my closest friends is a Jet Blue captain with just over 3 years of service. That would put him 7 years and thousands of numbers junior to me. He would lose his captain position. Would that be fair? No.

But a relative slotting would be more fair since he should have the seniority that could hold his current position. That is not a windfall for him. He chose to go to B6. I could have quit UA and gone there too. Some did. I did not. My choice. My reward/risk.

So my argument is consistent... DOH/years of service is a non-starter. ALPA merger policy is career expectation. It is the right way to do it even if the other airline is not ALPA.

Of course if an airline is being acquired outright, such as the acquisition attempt of US by UA in 2000, or the acquisition of TWA out of BK by AA, or the liquidation of Pan Am, then the rules change a bit.

Just remember that all we have to do is look at USAirways history to see where the hypocrites are. What happened to the Shuttle guys?? They didn't get DOH. Where was your outrage then?? Oh yeah... that would have put them ahead of you. What about in 2000 when you guys wanted our 747 manuals? You didn't want fences then, did you? I see. :down:

Anyway, now I'm done. You can have your last word.

Peace...
767jetz

 

[Busdrvr]

Spot on again Jetz. I don't understand this crazy infatuation with huge fences protecting domiciles. One has to think that those advocating DOH with fences are either irrational or they are hoping they get it so they can then tear the fences down at the first possible moment. I remember taking U guys on the jumpseat from the west coast eastward for work. Wouldn't it be a shared windfall for both sides to have shorter commutes?

 

[767jetz]

Wouldn't it be a shared windfall for both sides to have shorter commutes?

Sure would. This industry is so jumbled up, I'm sure that for every pilot who goes east there would another who goes west. (At any airline with any merger.)

I remember US guys in 2000 saying they would "only take a 767 captain position on the west coast" so they wouldn't have to commute to PHL to fly the 737. 🙄 Back then they didn't want a fence. Now suddenly they do.

Same old "I got(want) mine" attitude.

 

[Pi brat]

Sure would. This industry is so jumbled up, I'm sure that for every pilot who goes east there would another who goes west. (At any airline with any merger.)

I remember US guys in 2000 saying they would "only take a 767 captain position on the west coast" so they wouldn't have to commute to PHL to fly the 737. 🙄 Back then they didn't want a fence. Now suddenly they do.

Same old "I got(want) mine" attitude.

Kind of like you saying that UA would protect widebody flying, but it's fair that Nic didn't with us. You didn't respond to my other post.

 

[Busdrvr]

Kind of like you saying that UA would protect widebody flying, but it's fair that Nic didn't with us. You didn't respond to my other post.

Actually, he said he supported protecting the widebody flying for a very limited time. you are twisting his words to try to fit your preconceived biases.

Reguardless of message board posturing, a VAST majority of UAL pilots wanted fair, SLOTTED, seniority integration with U when the buyout was on. This would have meant putting a certain amount of UA Capts at the top of the list to protect the flying of the apprx 120 777's and 747's, as well as the DC-10's at the time. Of course that was unacceptable to the U hoards who wanted DOH, or even in some cases "super-seniority". Your irrational seniority grab torpedoed that merger and now you can only blame yourself that you have to now fight for seniority with AWA.

 

[Pi brat]

Actually, he said he supported protecting the widebody flying for a very limited time. you are twisting his words to try to fit your preconceived biases.

Reguardless of message board posturing, a VAST majority of UAL pilots wanted fair, SLOTTED, seniority integration with U when the buyout was on. This would have meant putting a certain amount of UA Capts at the top of the list to protect the flying of the apprx 120 777's and 747's, as well as the DC-10's at the time. Of course that was unacceptable to the U hoards who wanted DOH, or even in some cases "super-seniority". Your irrational seniority grab torpedoed that merger and now you can only blame yourself that you have to now fight for seniority with AWA.

You say "Your", are you speaking to me personally? I don't think we have ever met. And the "hoards" of U pilots? Would that be the 50 or so that post on here and the ALPA web? I don't remember the merger getting far enough to really get into the merger policy, did it? I remember a few loud mouth U pilots saying they couldn't wait for their 777 bids, but I remember a UA pilot pesonally telling me that U deserved to be stapled. Should I have painted all UA pilots the same as that guy? I would have expected the current UA widebody flying to be protected and future A/C open to all, just like I expected here.

The ALPA merger policy is very loose, with subjective guidelines. I believe that those looose guideline cause the parties to give up on negotiations and put out their best shot with the arbitrator. I then expect the arbitrator, you know the one how doesn't have a dog in the fight, to be fair. I don't think he was in this one, but you know what they say about opinions. I see some UA pilots post as hypocritical

 

[767jetz]

Kind of like you saying that UA would protect widebody flying, but it's fair that Nic didn't with us. You didn't respond to my other post.

For cryin' out loud! Would you guys go back and read ALL my posts on the subject and try to comprehend the context of the discussion instead of taking select words out of context.

FOR THE LAST TIME!: I Never said it was fair not to protect USAir's widebody flying. There is some protection of that flying in the Nicolau award. And if you look carefully you will see where I even said that the A330, and the attrition are ares where perhaps you could have done better. (If your negotiating committee wasn't single-mindedly focused on DOH and actually presented some ideas to that end. It is not the arbitrator's job to argue your case for you.)

The subject that I strongly agree with Nicolau on is the slotting with relative seniority to protect career expectation, and the placement of furloughs behind active pilots. Your DOH/length of service position is/was/ and always will be the single area where you guys are completely off the reservation! :blink:

 

[Busdrvr]

You say "Your", are you speaking to me personally? I don't think we have ever met. And the "hoards" of U pilots? Would that be the 50 or so that post on here and the ALPA web? I don't remember the merger getting far enough to really get into the merger policy, did it? I remember a few loud mouth U pilots saying they couldn't wait for their 777 bids, but I remember a UA pilot pesonally telling me that U deserved to be stapled. Should I have painted all UA pilots the same as that guy? I would have expected the current UA widebody flying to be protected and future A/C open to all, just like I expected here.

The ALPA merger policy is very loose, with subjective guidelines. I believe that those looose guideline cause the parties to give up on negotiations and put out their best shot with the arbitrator. I then expect the arbitrator, you know the one how doesn't have a dog in the fight, to be fair. I don't think he was in this one, but you know what they say about opinions. I see some UA pilots post as hypocritical

Actually it DID get far enough. UAL ALPA attempted to negotiate a prenup, but were rebuffed by U ALPA and it's demands for "DOH". That's straight from the UAL MEC chair at the time. Lucky for the UAL folks, we didn't trust that the U hoards would live up to your commitment to abide by the decision of an arbitrator.

 

[Pi brat]

Actually it DID get far enough. UAL ALPA attempted to negotiate a prenup, but were rebuffed by U ALPA and it's demands for "DOH". That's straight from the UAL MEC chair at the time. Lucky for the UAL folks, we didn't trust that the U hoards would live up to your commitment to abide by the decision of an arbitrator.

Aw,forgot about the prenup.The UA pilots attempt to circumvent the process. As screwed up as the process is, maybe you guys were on to something. Too bad you guys didn't merger with AWA, since your groups are keepers of all that is fair and good in the world.

 

[Pi brat]

For cryin' out loud! Would you guys go back and read ALL my posts on the subject and try to comprehend the context of the discussion instead of taking select words out of context.

FOR THE LAST TIME!: I Never said it was fair not to protect USAir's widebody flying. There is some protection of that flying in the Nicolau award. And if you look carefully you will see where I even said that the A330, and the attrition are ares where perhaps you could have done better. (If your negotiating committee wasn't single-mindedly focused on DOH and actually presented some ideas to that end. It is not the arbitrator's job to argue your case for you.)

The subject that I strongly agree with Nicolau on is the slotting with relative seniority to protect career expectation, and the placement of furloughs behind active pilots. Your DOH/length of service position is/was/ and always will be the single area where you guys are completely off the reservation! :blink:

Have you actually seen what was passed between the two merger committees? I haven't, I only got simple briefings. I can tell you that the AWA case that went to Nic was in no way fair and if AWAs proposals were anything like that they were right to not back off. Is it not the arbitrators role to determine what is fair if the 2 side can't agree? Is it his role to punish all the pilots of one group if their committee's work was off balance? I wish the terms DOH and LOS were never uttered. We should have just come up with a list and called it slotted. Sorry I missed where you said theree should have been some fences.

For cryin' out loud! Would you guys go back and read ALL my posts on the subject and try to comprehend the context of the discussion instead of taking select words out of context.

FOR THE LAST TIME!: I Never said it was fair not to protect USAir's widebody flying. There is some protection of that flying in the Nicolau award. And if you look carefully you will see where I even said that the A330, and the attrition are ares where perhaps you could have done better. (If your negotiating committee wasn't single-mindedly focused on DOH and actually presented some ideas to that end. It is not the arbitrator's job to argue your case for you.)

The subject that I strongly agree with Nicolau on is the slotting with relative seniority to protect career expectation, and the placement of furloughs behind active pilots. Your DOH/length of service position is/was/ and always will be the single area where you guys are completely off the reservation! :blink:

One more thing, a simple question. The AWA guy slotted right in front of me cannot and has never been able to hold a capt bid at AWA. He is now younger than and senior to me. If the airline merged tomorrow, he would be able to hold capt on the AB/737 in DCA,PHL, LGA,BOS and EMB-190 in PHL. If the age 60 rule is changed, he can hold A330 or 76I F/O, both higher paying positions than he now holds, even at our sorry rates. He will be able to bid any capt in any base before I can. Do you consider that a windfall?

 

[Bear96]

You say "Your", are you speaking to me personally? I don't think we have ever met. And the "hoards" of U pilots? Would that be the 50 or so that post on here and the ALPA web?

Are you implying that the U (now LCC) pilots who post on USAviation are not representative of what U / LCC pilots are really feeling as a whole?

So all this feigned outrage about the Nicolau award we are reading on the LCC board from the only "50 or so" East pilots who post there doesn't really represent the feelings of the East pilots as a whole and consequently can safely be ignored?

 

[Pi brat]

Are you implying that the U (now LCC) pilots who post on USAviation are not representative of what U / LCC pilots are really feeling as a whole?

So all this feigned outrage about the Nicolau award we are reading on the LCC board from the only "50 or so" East pilots who post there doesn't really represent the feelings of the East pilots as a whole and consequently can safely be ignored?

No, it's pretty much sums up the feeling about THIS merger, I was speaking about the US/UA pre-merger debate.