Merge anyone know about this

[Fly]

Both sides are ALPA. JetBlue is nothing.

 

[nostradamus]

Actually, no it wouldn't. Jet Blue pilots would have access to nothing but Airbus & 737 flying for quite some time. And that's if ALPA merger policy is used. Since Jet blue is not ALPA, actually you could see something more like the AA/TWA merger, however without the furloughs.

I don't believe anyone would advocate stapling the Jet Blue pilots though. Putting an Airbus captain at the bottom would not be fair. Airbus captains would probably be slotted close to whatever seniority current UA Airbus captains are. Same with the f/o's, which is basically near the bottom since that's where our most junior pilots are. Then there would be restrictions for Jet Blue pilots bidding widebody aircraft for a period of time.

But this discussion is certainly putting the cart before the horse. We are still in the rumor phase. Let's see if there is any truth behind it before we talk seniority.

Do not forget this is the hypocrite that has been posting on the Usairways board that it is ok for AWA to come over and take any seat they want, but when it involves his posterior, no one else can be above him in any way because as you all know he is far superior to any other pilot. He avows fairness as long as he is above anyone else on the list. Pathetic.

“It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.â€￾
Harry S. Truman

 

[767jetz]

Do not forget this is the hypocrite that has been posting on the Usairways board that it is ok for AWA to come over and take any seat they want, but when it involves his posterior, no one else can be above him in any way because as you all know he is far superior to any other pilot. He avows fairness as long as he is above anyone else on the list. Pathetic.

“It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.â€￾
Harry S. Truman

Nice try but that post is categorically false. I support ALPA merger which was clearly followed in the AWA/US merger. I will not get into that debate here on a UA forum with you.

As for a non-union airline like JB, I also support fairness that upholds ALPA's policy of career expectation. Even though the union could rightfully try to staple them, I wouldn't support that if JB captains lost their relative position and pay.

 

[nostradamus]

Nice try but that post is categorically false. I support ALPA merger which was clearly followed in the AWA/US merger. I will not get into that debate here on a UA forum with you.

As for a non-union airline like JB, I also support fairness that upholds ALPA's policy of career expectation. Even though the union could rightfully try to staple them, I wouldn't support that if JB captains lost their relative position and pay.

You support it because you think it does not effect you. All your posts mention protections for larger aircraft, which you fly. A plane is a plane, it does not take anymore skill to fly a larger plane than a smaller one. You do not deserve to jump hundreds of numbers above your fellow United pilots and throw a bunch of Jet Blue in the middle because your airplane is larger.

If flying a larger airplane is more important than others how come a Southwest pilot makes a lot more than you do.

United Pilot Pay
Southwest pilot pay

 

[767jetz]

You support it because you think it does not effect you. All your posts mention protections for larger aircraft, which you fly.

If flying a larger airplane is more important than others how come a Southwest pilot makes a lot more than you do.

I guess you are just trying to stir the pot. But unfortunately that won't work with me.

Larger aircraft bring a greater percentage of revenue to the company per flight. Hence the theory behind pay and aircraft size. A 747-400 makes most of it's revenue under the passenger compartment. Palates of cargo are golden, and can't be carried in smaller aircraft. Care to guess how much money a 400 brings in flying to NRT with only half the seats full? You'd be surprised.

My ego is not attached to the size of my airplane. Pay scales (right or wrong) are tied to the fleet you bid. Every airline does it slightly differently. CO uses narrowbody/widebody, UA uses 300/320 - 757/767 - 777/747. Some even have additional override pay for international.(UA used to but no longer does.) Whatever the case and whatever the reason, it is the way the industry is.

So Being able to bid the larger aircraft is a function of your relative seniority (There's that relative word that consistently pops up in my posts), which brings greater pay and quality of life. It's that simple. I don't really care who manufactures my airplane (although I prefer Boeing ) or how many seats are behind me. If tomorrow, the pay structure changed and I could make the same amount flying the 320 as the 747, I'd fly the 320 for the rest of my career. You see, I work to live not live to work.

As for SW pilots making more money, I think it's great! I don't begrudge those who have more. If anything I hope we can match their payscale on our narrowbody fleet in 2010. I never was afflicted by career envy. I could have chosen to fly for SW. But my choice has always been to fly for United, ever since I worked the ramp loading bags at JFK many years ago. No regret here.

now, care to take some more pot-shots at me? Fire away! 😛

 

[nostradamus]

767jetz
"Airbus captains (Jet Blue) would probably be slotted close to whatever seniority current UA Airbus captains are. Same with the f/o's, which is basically near the bottom since that's where our most junior pilots are. Then there would be restrictions for Jet Blue pilots bidding widebody aircraft for a period of time."


Nostradamus
"You do not deserve to jump hundreds of numbers above your fellow United pilots and throw a bunch of Jet Blue in the middle because your airplane is larger."

Please address this issue.

Also, if someone is questioning your logic, they are not "stirring the pot", or "taking pot shots", they are just questions.

 

[767jetz]

767jetz
"Airbus captains (Jet Blue) would probably be slotted close to whatever seniority current UA Airbus captains are. Same with the f/o's, which is basically near the bottom since that's where our most junior pilots are. Then there would be restrictions for Jet Blue pilots bidding widebody aircraft for a period of time."
Nostradamus
"You do not deserve to jump hundreds of numbers above your fellow United pilots and throw a bunch of Jet Blue in the middle because your airplane is larger."

Please address this issue.

Also, if someone is questioning your logic, they are not "stirring the pot", or "taking pot shots", they are just questions.

First of all, there were no direct questions posed, just statements and inferences.

Restrictions on bidding large gauge aircraft is common in integrations because some pilots at the smaller airline had no expectation of flying these jets before. Even in the recent Nicolau award at USAir there were restrictions on the A330.

As for the other issue, I don't understand what you mean by "jumping hundreds of numbers above your fellow United pilots." Where did I say anything about that??? :blink: Only that Jet Blue f/o's would be near the bottom because that is where new hires start out. (737 or A320) In other words, relative seniority. Jet Blue captains would probably be above me because I currently can not hold 320 captain. However I would probably be able to bid 767 captain before them.

Is that clear enough?? As always, I support no less than relative seniority based on what you bring to the table. No more. No less. Is that clear enough? B)

 

[Busdrvr]

As always, I support no less than relative seniority based on what you bring to the table. No more. No less. Is that clear enough? B)

Ditto!!

 

[nostradamus]

First of all, there were no direct questions posed, just statements and inferences.

Restrictions on bidding large gauge aircraft is common in integrations because some pilots at the smaller airline had no expectation of flying these jets before. Even in the recent Nicolau award at USAir there were restrictions on the A330.

As for the other issue, I don't understand what you mean by "jumping hundreds of numbers above your fellow United pilots." Where did I say anything about that??? :blink: Only that Jet Blue f/o's would be near the bottom because that is where new hires start out. (737 or A320) In other words, relative seniority. Jet Blue captains would probably be above me because I currently can not hold 320 captain. However I would probably be able to bid 767 captain before them.

Is that clear enough?? As always, I support no less than relative seniority based on what you bring to the table. No more. No less. Is that clear enough? B)

"However I would probably be able to bid 767 captain before them."

Why? This is not what you are pontificating on the Usairways message board. You are saying that is ok for you but not Usairways pilots, explain please.

 

[nostradamus]

767jetz
"Is that clear enough?? As always, I support no less than relative seniority based on what you bring to the table. No more. No less. Is that clear enough?"

"However I would probably be able to bid 767 captain before them."

"Jet Blue captains would probably be above me because I currently can not hold 320 captain."

But I held SFO last year and.......


Nostrodamus

"So you brought to the table a f/o job. Then you should end up with a wide body captain slot."

767jetz
"Airbus captains would probably be slotted close to whatever seniority current UA Airbus captains are. Same with the f/o's, which is basically near the bottom since that's where our most junior pilots are."

Nostradamus

"You are a wide body f/o as you claim. So you should be above a Airbus Captain, you should be able to get a widebody over a JB pilot, but the Usairways can not. Because ........"

Can you please clarify your logic for the laymen please?

 

[nostradamus]

Thank you for clearing all this up, and setting the ground rules for future alpa mergers. You have made this so clear.

 

[767jetz]

"You are a wide body f/o as you claim. So you should be above a Airbus Captain, you should be able to get a widebody over a JB pilot, but the Usairways can not. Because ........"

Can you please clarify your logic for the laymen please?

Nostradamus, you are a master at twisting words. No surprise though. Anyone who has frequented these boards over the years knows my position and my consistency. If you don't get it yet, then I can not waste any more time explaining it to you.

But in the interest of better understanding I will try one last time. Please try to comprehend my position without your personal assumptions and without adding words and ideas that I did not write.

I never said I should be above an A320 captain. In fact I said a JB captain would end up slightly above me in relative seniority. I did say that for a period of time (5 years, 10 years, whatever is negotiated) I would have the opportunity to bid 767 captain before a JB captain since they had no career expectation to do so. I didn't say permanently. But for a period of time.

Is this not what the Nicolau award has done for the USAir folks? There are protections for the 330 flying, as there should be. I never argued any different on the US Board. In fact if you read my positions you will see that the only thing I personally think could have been improved in the Nicolau award is further protection of the 330 flying extended to East f/o's, and perhaps a way to capture some more of the East attrition. I strongly oppose any DOH or "length of service" reference, because it is irrelevant once a new company is formed by merging two defunct airlines.

That being said, it is the East MEC's fault that alternative proposals to protect the 330 f/o's and capture the attrition, without a DOH demand, were never proposed. US East was singleminded in their entitlement attitude that did not forward any ideas without the DOH demand.

But I will not let this thread degrade into a debate over the merits of the Nicolau award. I have been consistent in all my post, regardless of your attempts to show otherwise.

So since you seem to just not get it, here it is again in as simple terms as I can muster. IMO protecting widebody flying for a limited time is fair in any integration. DOH has no place in a fair integration, and is exactly why it is absent from ALPA merger policy. Relative seniority and career expectations based on what you bring to the table is the only fair method of integrating pilot groups. This holds true for USAirways, and would hold true in a JB/UAL merger. (and for the record, notice I said merger, not acquisition.)

Are we done now? 🙄

 

[Pi brat]

Nostradamus, you are a master at twisting words. No surprise though. Anyone who has frequented these boards over the years knows my position and my consistency. If you don't get it yet, then I can not waste any more time explaining it to you.

But in the interest of better understanding I will try one last time. Please try to comprehend my position without your personal assumptions and without adding words and ideas that I did not write.

I never said I should be above an A320 captain. In fact I said a JB captain would end up slightly above me in relative seniority. I did say that for a period of time (5 years, 10 years, whatever is negotiated) I would have the opportunity to bid 767 captain before a JB captain since they had no career expectation to do so. I didn't say permanently. But for a period of time.

Is this not what the Nicolau award has done for the USAir folks? There are protections for the 330 flying, as there should be. I never argued any different on the US Board. In fact if you read my positions you will see that the only thing I personally think could have been improved in the Nicolau award is further protection of the 330 flying extended to East f/o's, and perhaps a way to capture some more of the East attrition. I strongly oppose any DOH or "length of service" reference, because it is irrelevant once a new company is formed by merging two defunct airlines.

That being said, it is the East MEC's fault that alternative proposals to protect the 330 f/o's and capture the attrition, without a DOH demand, were never proposed. US East was singleminded in their entitlement attitude that did not forward any ideas without the DOH demand.

But I will not let this thread degrade into a debate over the merits of the Nicolau award. I have been consistent in all my post, regardless of your attempts to show otherwise.

So since you seem to just not get it, here it is again in as simple terms as I can muster. IMO protecting widebody flying for a limited time is fair in any integration. DOH has no place in a fair integration, and is exactly why it is absent from ALPA merger policy. Relative seniority and career expectations based on what you bring to the table is the only fair method of integrating pilot groups. This holds true for USAirways, and would hold true in a JB/UAL merger. (and for the record, notice I said merger, not acquisition.)

Are we done now? 🙄

NO! It is not what happened in the Nicolau award, that's what we have been trying to say. AWA had no widebodies, US has 19. Not a huge amount, but I'm sure you understand the benefit that flying brings to a pilot group. I believe that was a huge issue with you guys for UA/US. How ever the list was put together, 10 guys were inserted into my class, they are all younger than me and will be able to bid Capt on the 767/A330 or it's replacement before I can and they had no expectation of ever having that kind of flying. A total of 1100 AWA pilots are now in front of me and can bid the aircraft they had no expectation of flying.

If you make a comparison of the Nicolau award to UA/JB it would be like putting the top 1000 or so UA guys on top, with limited widebody protection, then slotting the rest say 1 for 2, with no fences protecting upgrades to ANY UA flying, especially the widebody.

The guys slotted in my class can not now hold a Capt bid. They can hold A320 or 757 F/o in PHX or LAS. If the airlines are combined they will instanly be able to hold 737/A320 capt in DCA, PHL, LGA and BOS. If age 60 is thrown out the can instantly be able to hold A330 F/O in PHL, and 76I in PHL. No windfall there, huh?

Of course they say they have no interest in any east base or widebodies, that makes me feel so much better.

 

[nostradamus]

hello 767jetz
767jetz
"Nostradamus, you are a master at twisting words."

Nostradamus

"You twisted them for me, I just quoted you. Please refer to your previous quotes."

767jetz

"singleminded in their entitlement attitude"

Nostradamus

"Check the amount of times you mentioned wide body entitlements in your quotes please."

767jetz
"I will not degrade into a debate over the merits of the Nicolau award."

Nostradamus

I never mentioned the award

767jetz

"So since you seem to just not get it, here it is again in as simple terms as I can muster."

Nostradamus

My last few posts quoted your own posts. You mustered your own self serving terms and adusted them to your own needs.
You hypocrisy is proven by your own posts.

Your thoughts of being more superior than another human being will be the cause of your demise.

 

[nostradamus]

767jetz

"because it is irrelevant once a new company is formed by merging two defunct airlines"

Main Entry: de·funct
Pronunciation: di-'f&[ng]kt, dE-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin defunctus, from past participle of defungi to finish, die, from de- + fungi to perform -- more at FUNCTION
Date: 1599
: no longer living, existing, or functioning <that firm is now defunct>
synonym see DEAD

Did they stop operating a schedule at some point? Were they existing or functioning at the time? Your use of the English language is very liberal in terms of use. Would you call this a pot shot or a stir of the pot or a message from a messenger.

You can be paranoid and look at it like pot shots or look at it as a learning experience to improve yourself.

Please compare bankrupt UAL and Usairways and explain to us which was defunct and which was functioning. And was AWA in bankruptcy at the time or was UAL. Am I twisting your words or are they coming out twisted.

You have a right to your opinion, but you will be called to task by me in defending it.