Management Not So Sure They Own The Judge

[A320 Driver]

Airknocker,

How do you figure a 20% giveback if your factoring in a raise you haven't even gotten yet?

Just curious.

 

[autofixer]

A320Driver, It is just like the liberals in the congress, who claim the reduction in the amount of increase is a cut...same logic...same people.

 

[A320 Driver]

And further, I'm curious what W2 paycut the company is requesting based on TODAY'S pay, not FUTURE pay?

 

[RealityCheck]

You talk about the IAM contract idiocy?...An example of the CWA idiocy of which we are about to vote on is the revision of swapping in 1/4 hr increments instead of 1/2 hr, after the 1st hour.WHOOP DEE DOO..who gives a rats petune about 15 minute partials??Why was this even brought up? What I wanted to see was a no penalty clause for taking away 7 sick days a year leaving us with 5..for the next 6 years!..uh guess what? No such clause..you want me to vote on being able to pay me for up to 40 hours sick in a year, so let me use it with no penalty..But This was not figured into the contract..therefore.. for this and other reasons such as 13 an hour internet techies taking over the force within months, and lack of counsel on contract issues and questions, my conscience wont let me vote YES...voting yes only postpones the inevitable demise of CS for just a short time..People have had months, years of warnings to choose an alternate career path. I heeded those, and thankfully am prepared to possiblygo down with the ship. I still stand by the premise of FULL PAY TO THE LAST DAY. Siegel has no intention of paying, for 6 years, thousands of employees at 20 plus an hour, it was only agreed that high to sway the votes in his favor, knowing the axe cutting that will take place soon will put an end to that concession real fast. Like other people have said here.. as cruel as it may sound, you have to vote for the benefit of whats good yourself, not for others.

 

[RealityCheck]

So Lilninj, after that lil blasting , are u still voting YES?

 

[Lilninj]

Chip,

I don't think anyone is responding to your repeated chirping about the company not being able to pay it's bills. The fact is that the pilots got out of this a hell of a lot better than most and the FA's got the best deal of all hardly giving up anything and ultimately getting large raises by 2008. Pilots won't have been given a raise but hardly a cut in comparison to 16 months ago. Why do you constantly put all the pressure on other groups to give up what you would not, do not, and never will? It is not our responsibility to make up for management's mistakes or for pilot manipulations. The fact I like to remind everyone is that pilots ARE the company. They have seats on the board, as do the FA's. Mechs don't have any leverage compared to that, and CWA has none at all in the board room. So, who is screwing who here? You say the company is doing it to us? Well, Pilots and FA's are the company too so they are doing this to us. Enough infighting. Equal representation for employees in the board room! Then and only then can we as employees be expected and asked to contribute fairly. As it is, we are being asked to give up much more than those who have manipulated the board.

Ultimately, a judge determining whether to throw out a union contract will have to take those facts into consideration, perhaps no weight at all given to it, but it'll be on the record anyway. Then perhaps when it's United's turn at the court, there groups will not give any cooperation at all and file motions to cancel any seats in the board room for those pilots and fa's before any contract negotiations are finalized. Got to do what you can to protect yourselves!

Lilninj

 

[A320 Driver]

Lilninj

A330 Captains paycut was 6 figures. 1070 fuloughs now with 500 more to come in the near future. Probably close to 1000 downgrades from Captain to First Officer which is a 40% cut in pay to start with...then add on the cut we just signed on for. My W2 cut was 38%. With the concessions we took on the last contract, I now work more days for less pay than I did in 1990. I am not complaining...just setting the record straight. This pilot group got away with NOTHING! Our group got hurt as bad as anybody...we're not whining about it, just dealing with it.

 

[N513AU]

[blockquote]
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On 9/11/2002 836 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

Maybe they wish to avoid more infighting/poor morale and general ugliness. No one is sure just what would happen if this goes to a judge, but one thing is clear. U could wind up liquidated if major labor problems occur at this delicate stage in their restructuring. Coming up with something agreeable is in EVERYONE'S best interest (everyone that wants U to survive that is).
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[/blockquote]

Then go back to the bargaining table. The mechanic and related TA doesn't stand a chance of passing. I'm hearing from people everywhere that many of the former yesses are now nos. Why? Because the company and the IAM should have gone back to the table - but they said we were idiots and that we didn't understand. I know what I voted for. I voted NO. I REJECTED your silly proposal. Now stop asking me to vote for the same POS again and come up with something agreeable. Bargain in good faith - it isn't a hard concept.

Yes, if this imposed on us by a judge - there's gonna be labor unrest in a big way. No, it may not be a strike action - but productivity will suck and I'm certain there will be many more problems discovered on airplanes. Sadly, this will put our company in the grave - but remember, boys and girls - Dave did it to us by trying to play big boy with labor.

 

[cavalier]

oldiebutgoody
Member

Total Posts: 26
Last Post: 9/12/2002
Member Since: 8/23/2002



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On 9/11/2002 955 PM pitguy wrote:

Some people feel we are treated terrible. That tends to make you feel cold after so many years. Should have thought about that before.
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Wait until the bank reposesses your home, cancels your credit cards and takes back your cars. You think you're treated bad now, just wait until the reality of being unemployed finally sinks in....then you'll wish that you could be treated this poorly again! I suggest you start looking for new employment NOW! I AM! All the respect, poor treatment, and past injustices all of your type are willing to fall on your swords for won't put food on the table! In a way, I hope this gets to a judge, just so that you can see just how wrong you are; but then I realize that putting this issue before the court just puts U closer to the point of no-return.

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The emotions comes in a row.....right now you are in the A N G E R mode. But you will soon calmly realize that screaming at people to see the light because you feel you do and they don't, it's a waste of energy. Do what YOU feel is correct and forget about it. I personally see both sides, and so do the No Voters.

 

[chipmunn]

N513AU:

N513AU said: Yes, if this imposed on us by a judge - there's gonna be labor unrest in a big way. No, it may not be a strike action - but productivity will suck and I'm certain there will be many more problems discovered on airplanes. Sadly, this will put our company in the grave - but remember, boys and girls - Dave did it to us by trying to play big boy with labor.

Chip comments: N513AU:

N513AU said: Yes, if this imposed on us by a judge - there's gonna be labor unrest in a big way. No, it may not be a strike action - but productivity will suck and I'm certain there will be many more problems discovered on airplanes. Sadly, this will put our company in the grave - but remember, boys and girls - Dave did it to us by trying to play big boy with labor.

Chip comments: The unions had months to come up with voluntary accords and meet the concession amount required by the ATSB, but for whatever reason did not do so. If either restructuring agreement is not ratified, the union will force Dave to seek to cancel the CBA because the credit facility and loan guarantee require the concessions.

If this occurs, the company will seek deeper cuts and the union and its members will risk having to pay damages, just like in the APA & AMR case.

Dave has no option but to have the court abrogate any union contract that has not been restructured because both the credit facility and loan guarantee require the concessions.

Do you agree that without IAM-M concessions the company will not be able to obtain second tranche of the DIP loan per the MOU? Furthermore, without all unions agreeing to the cuts the remaining portion of the DIP financing and the loan guarantee will be unavailable?

N513AU, nobody likes the cuts, nobody likes this situation, but the company is not the hammer. The cuts are required by those who are willing to loan the airline funds and without these funds the airline cannot survive.

Again, nobody wants this to get ugly and for the S.1113 hearing to proceed, but Dave is not the hammer, it's the lenders and the ATSB.

Chip