Lowering The Standards Of The A&P At AA

[Hopeful]

If they're licensed, then they're licensed... Maybe they put themselves thru school, the post 9/11 downturn hit, and they chose not to sacrifice feeding their family while working at slave wages on Cessna's for a FBO... or maybe they were AMT's elsewhere, and the FSC job was the best they could get. But to get the license, I'm sure there was some degree of hands-on required, no? And AA has fam training, no?

Rumors are great, but what's the backstory?

Everything I learned and tested for to get my A&P licenses was virtually some sand in the hourglass compared to what I learned and needed to know when I got that "real" airline job.
The "hands-on" you refer to were inactive and stagnate reciprocating, radial, and jet engines from the 40's, 50's and 60's. Some old Cessna's and Pipers. (George T. Baker in Miami hit a grand slam when AA donated the MD-80.)

As for the Gen-Fam AA provides for each fleet..It is just that and nothing more...general familiarization. Took me years to be proficient on each fleet and the learning process is virtually never ending. You can only learn so much in a classroom and there is no substitute for actual hands on work.

I have no problem with people looking to upgrade to a mechanic, but the ones with no experience should start in a overhaul base and not learn their craft on the "line" with flights and on-time stats at stake. There is no time to train.

 

[eolesen]

Fair enough, and I agree on all counts, but here you have someone who has already shown some degree of loyalty to the company, and they want to move into the same profession you chose. They also spent their time and money to get an A&P.

Yet the only way they can earn your respect is for them to move to TUL or AFW for a couple years?... Isn't that going to limit who you get a bit?

Maybe it's time to resurrect the idea of an apprentice or junior mechanic?

 

[787nightmare]

Fair enough, and I agree on all counts, but here you have someone who has already shown some degree of loyalty to the company, and they want to move into the same profession you chose. They also spent their time and money to get an A&P.

Yet the only way they can earn your respect is for them to move to TUL or AFW for a couple years?... Isn't that going to limit who you get a bit?

Maybe it's time to resurrect the idea of an apprentice or junior mechanic?

"Maybe it's time to resurrect the idea of an apprentice or junior mechanic?"

I always liked that idea/program "e"...I think it's good for the employees at the carrier and it's good for the company. A "farm" if you will.
And don't short change them just because they don't have any experience. They still are working on airliners.

Btw, I called the manpower (lady) in LAX trying to get a feel of where they were staffing and recall-wise. The lady said they were still in the process of recalling(so I don't know how they could be upgrading while still recalling??). The union rep out there also said many were turning down, those that said they'd accept-some wound up not showing. I am awaiting for them to post west coast openings externally.

 

[787nightmare]

Thats the way it used to be!!

Yeah I know "Red"...that's why i never persued the Supv position in TULE as a scheduler.
They're not interesting in people like me/us anymore...

 

[telebender1956]

"Maybe it's time to resurrect the idea of an apprentice or junior mechanic?"

I always liked that idea/program "e"...I think it's good for the employees at the carrier and it's good for the company. A "farm" if you will.
And don't short change them just because they don't have any experience. They still are working on airliners.

Btw, I called the manpower (lady) in LAX trying to get a feel of where they were staffing and recall-wise. The lady said they were still in the process of recalling(so I don't know how they could be upgrading while still recalling??). The union rep out there also said many were turning down, those that said they'd accept-some wound up not showing. I am awaiting for them to post west coast openings externally.

We had this apprenticeship program at TULE in the late 1980's and for the most part it worked very well. As usual, AA management did not like it because it was working good.

 

[telebender1956]

Yeah I know "Red"...that's why i never persued the Supv position in TULE as a scheduler.
They're not interesting in people like me/us anymore...

You are correct that the present management at TULE overall does not like experienced AMT's who have much more experience that the people supervising them. They are intimidated by the knowledge and skills of the people on the floor and they need inexperienced,scared,yes men to usher in their low wages MRO operation.

 

[Hopeful]

Fair enough, and I agree on all counts, but here you have someone who has already shown some degree of loyalty to the company, and they want to move into the same profession you chose. They also spent their time and money to get an A&P.

Yet the only way they can earn your respect is for them to move to TUL or AFW for a couple years?... Isn't that going to limit who you get a bit?

Maybe it's time to resurrect the idea of an apprentice or junior mechanic?

Nothing to do with respect. Just the line is not the best place to learn from scratch considering the pressure of on-time departures. They need an environment where they can be comfortable learning. This is my opinion regarding zero experience, new mechanics. I do not feel the same for those from general aviation or the military. They already have the basic knowledge that school really doesn't prepare you for. it is very hard to show someone the ropes when you are near delay contention or already in a delay.
If not TUL or AFW, then maybe restrict them to the B checks done at the Class I stations under the Junior Mechanic program.

 

[Bob Owens]

Maybe it's time to resurrect the idea of an apprentice or junior mechanic?

I have no problem with it as long as its a true appenticship program, not simply another two tier wage scam like it became in the 90s where we had Junior Mechs being assigned without an AMT and even had JR Mechs RII buying back AMT work. They cant be included as a full AMT in the headcount since in theory they will be working with and learning by observing an AMT. Back then 10 years at Eagle didnt count for anything so many were experienced mechanics they just didnt work big airplanes.

The company got rid of it in 2001 because they didnt want to fix what they were doing wrong. My feeling is that they did that in preparation for this and FAR 66. In 2003 only one counterproposal was brought forth, that was to eliminate Part Time language from our agreement. Why do you think they did that? There was no dollar value to it and the one part time T-II could have been grandfathered in.

You say that limiting them to Tulsa or AFW is too limiting, well right now they are pretty much limited to New York, and the company feels that since most have years with the company they will accept living here on the entry wage of $14/hr plus premiums. My guess is most will not make a full year here. Six months, three spent in training and to a man/woman they will have their papers in to get out. In their spitefullness the company is going to make this whole experience as unpleasent as they possibly can for these people. As far as I can remember as long as we have had flex Starting rates we always hired above the first step. I have to wonder how many will simply pass because they dont want to get stuck trying to live off $20/hr in an area where they need $45/hr to live like they are living now.

Years ago AA could get experienced mechanics because we would go to the LCCs to get experience. Back then, as now, they had fewer mechanics per airplane, outsourced their heavy work and had much lower operating costs, however they werent very reliable, a lot of that had to do with the fact that they had inexperienced mechanics learning their trade there. Once they became proficient they left and went to the majors. Now the LCCs still outsource most of their OH, still have fewer mechanics per airplane and lower operating costs but often pay more than the majors, Jet Blue, pays $38 in high cost areas, Air Tran pays $36, and SWA pays $43 vs AAs $33. We are becoming the training grounds for those carriers for the very few who bother getting their A&Ps. Its not like the pay went up at the LCCs, all they did was keep pace with inflation, the pay at the majors plummeted. Most of the young have permanently left the industry and the FAA only issues around 6000 new maintenance certs a year, an A&P is two certs, so thats possibly around 3000 new A&Ps a year, thats not enough for the airlines, let alone the rest of the Aviation system. There is only one reason for this-Pay. You arent going to get a lot of People to invest in getting an A&P if there' isnt a payoff of a good job in the end. Jet Blue, even at $38 is constantly losing people. Their workforce is younger with only a few years invested, therefore more inclined to throw in the towel sooner than their older counterparts at the majors. 30 years ago when I was hired on by Capitol Air my intentions were to get the experience needed to get into the majors. If back then the majors were paying less than Capitol, I would probably do what some of the younger guys who now quit Jet Blue are doing, quit ad leave the industry, because for the pay offered and the demands they expect us to meet it simply would not be worth it.

Recently the FAA announced that they will be trying to determine the true number of active license holders out their. I see this as another step in their plan to reintroduce FAR 66. Years ago they used to just list the number of licences issued from the agency to people who were between 18 and 65, then they made it 70. Why, to inflate the numbers and lower our percieved bargaining power. The first time I looked at the figure from the FAA in the 90s it said their were 330,000 license holders (65 and under), the more recent number is 300,000 (70 and under). Obviously raising the age considered active inflated the number but it still dropped by 30,000. If we went back to 65 my guess is the number would probably be in the low 200,000 range. Now they are initiating a program to determine those who are actually active, why? To expose the reality that there arent enough people pursuing a career as an aircaft mechanic so they can use that as an excuse to lower the standards and continue to supress our wages. That if Airline Mechanics had to withdraw their labor from General Aviation due to duty time limits that system would probably collapse. That if Airline mechanics faced similar duty time limits as pilots that the commercial airline system would also be in a crisis because many work for more than one employer, which isnt even tracked by the FAA. Repetive 16 to 20 hour days is not uncommon for airline aircraft mechanics in their desperate attempt to make up for the 40% cut in real earning we have experienced.