Looks at these elected morons

[local 12 proud]

I notice that when UAL TECH and I were conversing in German, nobody seemed to join in. I guess we weren't exciting enough, although I think we were among the most diverse people on these boards at the time.

I remember back in high school, many moons ago I tried German as an elective and soon dropped that class because it seemed to be such a difficult language at least for me at the time, of course at 17 cars and girls are about the only thing that can hold a young mans attention... I wish that i would have stayed with it now because being bi-lingual does have its advantages.
Now with that being said English is the Universal language and should be our official language because its not only ours from birth but its the American way. My family Immigrated from Ireland and over the years the dialect morphed into 'American' along with the loss of Gaelic, Im very proud of my Irish heritage but first and foremost Im an American and damn proud of it, anybody who wishes to change America all I can say is dont let the door hit ya, where the good Lord split ya!

BTW.. KC, bratwurst and beer are two of my favorites.

 

[KCFlyer]

I remember back in high school, many moons ago I tried German as an elective and soon dropped that class because it seemed to be such a difficult language at least for me at the time, of course at 17 cars and girls are about the only thing that can hold a young mans attention... I wish that i would have stayed with it now because being bi-lingual does have its advantages.
Now with that being said English is the Universal language and should be our official language because its not only ours from birth but its the American way. My family Immigrated from Ireland and over the years the dialect morphed into 'American' along with the loss of Gaelic, Im very proud of my Irish heritage but first and foremost Im an American and damn proud of it, anybody who wishes to change America all I can say is dont let the door hit ya, where the good Lord split ya!

BTW.. KC, bratwurst and beer are two of my favorites.

I remember back in the 60's....everything was "come together"..."unite"..."equality for all". Now we've got "diversity"...be different...be who you are...celebrate your differences. I wonder if MLK is rolling in his grave.

 

[Ch. 12]

Let's look at two arguments that I have seen come up over and over here (paraphrased but I'm sure you will agree that I got the context):

1) "Immigrants are building their own, isolated communities now and this is a new development"

Well I say BS. Anybody that can remember further back than 1970 can recall that every major city had a German Village, China Town, Irish, Polish, Russian, Japanese, Spanish, etc sector. Any older city was actually built on these diverse (and isolated) communities. People within these communities spoke their own language, baked their own goods, and had schools that were either entirely their culture or highly concentrated. This way of life has actually diminished in the past 40 years as anger of several "americans" have said that it isn't PC to have groups that are retaining their old culture here in the US. I have revisited the old villages I mentioned above and there now is nothing tied to "German" or "Irish" or whatever culture the village is named after.

Conclusion: untrue that immigrants are more isolated now than in the past. Anyone with an ounce of real remembrance of the past knows this.

2) "We will have to be reliant on translators with the influx of non-English speakers"

Guess it's too bad, then, that we didn't have enough of a middle easteren immigration "problem" in the 80s/90s b/c our gov't decided that Arabic translators were a waste of time and we didn't even have them until after 9/11. Is it really THAT bad to have translators here? Perhaps translators are actually just the ticket when listening to illegal wire taps in other languagues.

 

[KCFlyer]

People within these communities spoke their own language, baked their own goods, and had schools that were either entirely their culture or highly concentrated.

At the risk or sounding intolerant or racist or whatever it is one who thinks an offical language isn't a bad idea - you left one thing out...when those same people ventured OUT from their communities - they spoke the more common language - English. Today, rather than asking that one group actually learn the predominant language, we want to accomodate them by doing everything in whatever language they happen to speak. Nobody is saying we should ban Spanish or German or Latvian or Chinese - heck when you are "within that community", speak it to your hearts content. But when you venture out - learn English.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Let's look at two arguments that I have seen come up over and over here (paraphrased but I'm sure you will agree that I got the context):

You missed the context entirely and I do not agree. There was no ‘judgment’ as if it were acceptable or not, just the fact that is a reality in our society. My reference to China Town in SF is hardly not new, or did you not know that? There are third generation Chinese that do not speak English today. Is this a good and healthy thing for them?

1) "Immigrants are building their own, isolated communities now and this is a new development"

Did anyone state that this was a ‘new’ development? You are just being argumentative without reason.

Well I say BS. Anybody that can remember further back than 1970 can recall that every major city had a German Village, China Town, Irish, Polish, Russian, Japanese, Spanish, etc sector. Any older city was actually built on these diverse (and isolated) communities. People within these communities spoke their own language, baked their own goods, and had schools that were either entirely their culture or highly concentrated. This way of life has actually diminished in the past 40 years as anger of several "americans" have said that it isn't PC to have groups that are retaining their old culture here in the US. I have revisited the old villages I mentioned above and there now is nothing tied to "German" or "Irish" or whatever culture the village is named after.

I grew up in a ‘German Village’ in Ohio, but everyone would switch from German to English if necessary. It was understood that English is the predominate language and if you want to be part of the community, then English was spoken.

Conclusion: untrue that immigrants are more isolated now than in the past. Anyone with an ounce of real remembrance of the past knows this.

How so?

2) "We will have to be reliant on translators with the influx of non-English speakers"

If a person decides not to speak a language of their ‘new’ country, then they should be content to cut my grass, serve my food, and STFU.
Your 'ideology' (idiotology) is an enabler to the dysfunction of this society. You condemn immigrants to be dirt poor the rest of their lives as they 'ALL' attempt to change the rest of society to speak 'their' language instead of taking accountability for their own and speak the language of their new country. Your message is that immigrants do not have to speak the language of their benefactor country and ‘the whole world’ must bend over to accommodate them.

If you had any (ANY) sense, then you would understand this:
Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi.
340 BC

Guess it's too bad, then, that we didn't have enough of a middle easteren immigration "problem" in the 80s/90s b/c our gov't decided that Arabic translators were a waste of time and we didn't even have them until after 9/11. Is it really THAT bad to have translators here? Perhaps translators are actually just the ticket when listening to illegal wire taps in other languagues.

Drifting?

 

[KCFlyer]

Your 'ideology' (idiotology) is an enabler to the dysfunction of this society. You condemn immigrants to be dirt poor the rest of their lives as they 'ALL' attempt to change the rest of society to speak 'their' language instead of taking accountability for their own and speak the language of their new country. Your message is that immigrants do not have to speak the language of their benefactor country and ‘the whole world’ must bend over to accommodate them.

Remember the judge in Texas who caught hell for telling a hispanic family that unless they wanted their kids to grow up to be maids, they should learn English?

I swear, sometimes I think this "diversity" talk means that those who support an "official" language want to ban the speaking of foreign languages. Back in the early 1900's if gradmama or grandpapa didn't want to learn the language, they stayed in their own communities. Their kids learned English and moved ahead...but they'd still speak their native tongue to grandmama and grandpapa.

If English isn't "official", then is it the fault of the cops if someone they were stopping didn't understand what they were saying...and ended up being shot or tasered? While a red octagon usually means stop...what happens when they can't read the sign that says (in English) "Bridge Out"? There's no doubt that if an American decides to do business in China, it would behoove them to learn Chinese. If an American wants to do business in Germany, it would behoove them to learn German. But if somebody comes to the US, we should bend over backwards to accomodate them?

 

[UAL_TECH]

Remember the judge in Texas who caught hell for telling a hispanic family that unless they wanted their kids to grow up to be maids, they should learn English?

I swear, sometimes I think this "diversity" talk means that those who support an "official" language want to ban the speaking of foreign languages. Back in the early 1900's if gradmama or grandpapa didn't want to learn the language, they stayed in their own communities. Their kids learned English and moved ahead...but they'd still speak their native tongue to grandmama and grandpapa.

If English isn't "official", then is it the fault of the cops if someone they were stopping didn't understand what they were saying...and ended up being shot or tasered? While a red octagon usually means stop...what happens when they can't read the sign that says (in English) "Bridge Out"? There's no doubt that if an American decides to do business in China, it would behoove them to learn Chinese. If an American wants to do business in Germany, it would behoove them to learn German. But if somebody comes to the US, we should bend over backwards to accomodate them?

That’s the way I see it as well. Declaring English as our official language does nothing more than state that our government and commerce will predominately communicate in English, as we do now. There is nothing stopping people from communicating in their father tongue (or any other language if you wish). That is common sense. Here in CA the government is bending backwards trying to teach in both English and Spanish but end up not doing either very well and the students suffer with a poor education as a result. The majority of people that refuse to lean English have limited their career expectations exponentially, while if they learned English and kept their native language, then they are an asset with a brighter future.

Could you imagine if I put in a resume with a company in France and told them that they must learn English before they hire me? What would be my career expectations if I did something as foolish as that? :blink:

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[UAL_TECH]

BTW.. KC, bratwurst and beer are two of my favorites.

Think sauerbraten.......

B) UT

 

[Ch. 12]

Your 'ideology' (idiotology) is an enabler to the dysfunction of this society.

Nice ASSumption. I pointed out two arguments and countered them. Never did I say where I stood on the universal language or whether or not English should be the only language allowed in the US. I said that it is hogwash that immigrant groups are more isolated now than in past generations. And I said that it sure would have been nice to not be so ignorant to the rest of the world and to have actually embraced having translators in this country and embraced learning other cultures so that it wouldn't take us 5 years after 9/11 to get full translations of what was being said beforehand.

So if you want to put words into my mouth and ASSume that I was argueing the bigger issue when, in fact, I wasn't (thanks again for putting words into my mouth and name-calling needlessly)...then make up whatever story suits your rage. I, for one, think it's fine for english to be the accepted language here in the US and to have all official forms, etc, to be in English. I also think that it's important for the ignorant buffoons in this country to actually try to learn another language b/c our ignorance of the rest of the world is what makes us so vulnerable to threats from the rest of the world. I think we need to stop being so arrogant and actually learn another language (as is mandated throughout Europe and Asia) so that we can compete in the new, globalized world. But again...I think that English SHOULD be our official language (as it is so what is the argument?) so please don't make up my position if I haven't stated it. That is "idiotology" to borrow from you.

 

[KCFlyer]

I also think that it's important for the ignorant buffoons in this country to actually try to learn another language b/c our ignorance of the rest of the world is what makes us so vulnerable to threats from the rest of the world. I think we need to stop being so arrogant and actually learn another language (as is mandated throughout Europe and Asia) so that we can compete in the new, globalized world. But again...I think that English SHOULD be our official language (as it is so what is the argument?) so please don't make up my position if I haven't stated it. That is "idiotology" to borrow from you.

Why then are folks who suggest making English official considered morons? FWIW, second languages are fast becoming mandated in some public school districts, although truth be told, I'd rather see my daughter focus her attention on math and science rather than Spanish.

 

[local 12 proud]

Think sauerbraten.......

B) UT

UT, was'nt sure what sauerbraten consisted of so i looked it up, low and behold it sounds just like my moms old home style rumproast which was the greatest. Now either the Germans stole that one from the Irish or vise versa, either way an awsome feast.

just as a side note, the only thing I see different is the use of vinegar which leads me to believe the Germans hijacked it and added their own extra ingredient...just kidding.

I may have a german in the woodpile somewhere, I love sauerkraut, (rotten cabbage) is what all my friends call it as they turn their nose's up...go figure :huh:

regards,
local 12

 

[Ch. 12]

Why then are folks who suggest making English official considered morons?

Huh? Are you confusing me with somebody b/c I never said that...never even came close. Capt Bud (topic starter) called Dems morons for voting against one version of the bill though he failed to point out that they voted FOR another version accomplishing the same thing. You are usually thorough in reading these threads, KC, so I'll just chalk it up to confusion. I didn't call anyone a moron for either position.

FWIW, second languages are fast becoming mandated in some public school districts, although truth be told, I'd rather see my daughter focus her attention on math and science rather than Spanish.

In reality...learning a language has been encouraged in high schools for 20 years. But two years of mandatory foreign language training in high school (13 years after the prime time for learning a language) is a feabile display at an "attempt" to not be so ignorant in this country and actually learn another language/culture. And I'm sure that your daughter wouldn't have to sacrafice math or science to learn a language. Again...Europe/Asia has proven this for decades. If you are worried about her math/science education, you should look at the wonderful budgets that our gov't has come up with in recent years. They have slashed funding for education.

In the day/age of globalization we need to stop being so arrogant and thinking that the USA will be the controller of the world economy and we need to actually encourage our students to learn something other than English. And yes...we should also force immigrants to learn English. But we'll leave it up to proactive countries to learn Chinese, Spanish, Portugese, etc, so that they can take the lead in the world economy while we sit back and say "we're America and we don't have to learn anything that doesn't pertain to OUR country". Doesn't work for a business to sit back and think that their competitive edge will last forever and it won't work for us. But the mentality that we don't need to learn nothin' is the exact ignorance that is going to quickly put us behind in the world.

 

[KCFlyer]

And I'm sure that your daughter wouldn't have to sacrafice math or science to learn a language. Again...Europe/Asia has proven this for decades.

I'll put it this way...Spanish is NOT an elective in my kids school district. She can pull straight A's in all her other classes, and a high C in Spanish...guess what - no honor roll. And I think that it's a shame that she has to choose between lacking in subjects that actually educate her, and a class that will allow her to converse in an America with someone who didn't bother learning the native language. As I said...if she plans on working for a company in Spain or France, she'll learn Spanish or French. But it's nice to know that when she's ready to take her driving test, she can opt to take it in English, or Spanish, or Russian, or Chinese, or Vietnamese if she wants.

 

[delldude]

Yeah,but where do we draw the line?
Am I going to have to take spanish so I can interact in my own society?

 

[Ch. 12]

Yeah,but where do we draw the line?
Am I going to have to take spanish so I can interact in my own society?

Nope. Immigrants should take English. Period. But we should take A language...choose one. I would go for Chinese, some Indian language, or maybe Japanese if I were in school now and not too dumb/old to proficiently learn a new language. But our students should be forced to learn a language...but not forced to learn a specific language.

As far as lacking in some subjects to learn others...as I said before, I don't buy it. Other countries have been doing it for a couple hundred years. Go to Switzerland and they are proficient in German, Italian, French, and English. Do they lack science and math skills? No. I'd say that they are pretty darn proficient in Math seeing as they are a banking (THE) center. It is hogwash to say that we are tapped out in what we are learning in our schools. With the slashed education budget, I'd say that we aren't learning enough right now. But we shouldn't wait until HS to learn a language...then it does take alot more energy to learn and it is much more difficult to become proficient. We should start immediately after entering grade school.

Do I think we should all have to learn English? Hell no...and that has never been the topic of this thread. Do I think we should be humble (ignorant) enough to think that we should only know English b/c we are too proud to learn another language? Also hell no.