Little: Concessions were the right thing

[eolesen]

I've subsidized trips to disney world for the past 5 years, now it's your turn to pay. The pricing model is wrong, the fares are way too cheap.

Some 25% of the travelers make up 75% of AMR's revenues. So, it's guys like me paying $9K for a DFW-CDG round trip who wind up funding your pensions -and- subsidizing the guys going to Disneyworld for $199...

 

[AMFAMAN]

Some 25% of the travelers make up 75% of AMR's revenues. So, it's guys like me paying $9K for a DFW-CDG round trip who wind up funding your pensions -and- subsidizing the guys going to Disneyworld for $199...

I've already claimed Disney World, you and the rest of the full fare club need to subsidize something else like executive bonuses.

 

[Hopeful]

Some 25% of the travelers make up 75% of AMR's revenues. So, it's guys like me paying $9K for a DFW-CDG round trip who wind up funding your pensions -and- subsidizing the guys going to Disneyworld for $199...

Are you paying the $9K? or is it your company paying for it?

 

[eolesen]

Why does that matter? I'm a partner, so it's one and the same. Every dollar we spend on expenses is one less dollar that goes into our profit sharing pool. Last year's payouts were five figures, so there's incentive for partners to keep expenses low. Keeping travel expenses low and being cheap are two entirely different things.

But again, aside from the typical "attack the customer" attitude here, why does it matter so much to you where the money is coming from as long as it is spent with AA?

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NO! There were options.

HOW the TWU came up with the ground worker share of the sacrifice was a UNION decision.

The choice.

Reduce Capacity and RIF employees still having to give some in pay/benefits/work rules.

Or

Strip the contract of 50 years of pay and benefits to save jobs and keep the capacity in the air.

Given the fact that now time has gone by, two things come to my minid.

#1. Yes, we are better off than we would have been going through BK.

#2. Saving Jobs and Capacity was the WRONG choice. In Capitalist Economy, supply and demand dictates pricing. Saving the job, and not reducing capacity was not only a stupid decision by the TWU and Jim Little, but Don Carty has to be one of the worst Airline CEO's on the planet to allow the "union" to decide how to save a corporation from BK.

I do not disagree in total with Jim Little that we are indeed better off than had AA gone BK, but I completely disagree that the method he led the union down to come with the TWU share of the concessions and the result has by far made the airline and the industry as a whole a worse place to be employed.

Jim Little and the TWU chose to give away the farm in pay and benefits to save jobs which in turn meant capacity still flies today. That over capacity is still the problem today and why the airline industry is in complete malfunction and on the brink of unrecoverable problems.

If the Airlines can merge and reduce capacity in 2008, and if AA can sell off investment fims, American Eagle, then so too could that have been done in 2003 instead of shafting the employees and leaving the profession in a complete reduction in the standard of living that may well never be recovered.

Contrary to what is being posted here, there were choices, and Jim Little failed us all.

And Organized Labor claims to protect the middle class :blink: Not the TWU version of organized labor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Informer"

I absolutely agree with your assessment of contract/2003.

I would have done it slightly different,........like for Instance, cutting "AA" capacity, and farming it out to A/E.(Obviously I wouldn't have jettisoned A/E at that point in time.)
There were a number of main line stations that could have gone A/E,.......I was in one of them,(BDL) before I said "Adios". As it is now,..all the BDL/ORD trips are RJ's(3 DFW/1 MIA and 1 SJU are still mainline, but that right there is BELOW the number of annual departures to justify BDL staying mainline.

HDQ didn't bat an eye, when they "transformed" ALL of upstate NY to A/E (BUF/syr/roc/ALB) !!

 

[The Goose]

Some 25% of the travelers make up 75% of AMR's revenues. So, it's guys like me paying $9K for a DFW-CDG round trip who wind up funding your pensions -and- subsidizing the guys going to Disneyworld for $199...

I have to ask - you and another gent seem to be rather successful in your business endeavors. Why in God's name do you come here and slum around with us rummies?

Don't take this as a request to go away; not so - take the question at face value.

 

[Hopeful]

Why does that matter? I'm a partner, so it's one and the same. Every dollar we spend on expenses is one less dollar that goes into our profit sharing pool. Last year's payouts were five figures, so there's incentive for partners to keep expenses low. Keeping travel expenses low and being cheap are two entirely different things.

But again, aside from the typical "attack the customer" attitude here, why does it matter so much to you where the money is coming from as long as it is spent with AA?

So if you are on vacation and not on company business, would you pay $9k for yourself and each family member?

 

[Bob Owens]

Why does that matter? I'm a partner, so it's one and the same. Every dollar we spend on expenses is one less dollar that goes into our profit sharing pool. Last year's payouts were five figures, so there's incentive for partners to keep expenses low. Keeping travel expenses low and being cheap are two entirely different things.

Its not one and the same. Its also less dollars of income you have to pay taxes on even though you get additional miles to your credit card that you can use to fly away on vacation for free.

If your company paid for it we all paid for it since its all tax deductable for your company.

 

[eolesen]

So if you are on vacation and not on company business, would you pay $9k for yourself and each family member?

Nope. We don't usually travel by air as a family, and didn't when we were both employed by the airline and could travel service charge free. We still do the family road-trip to places like Yellowstone or Grand Canyon and experience America at see level. The idea of sitting at a resort or on a ship for a week isn't very appealing to me, and I'm not sure why people think they need pre-packaged entertainment like that. Taking the Winnebago five miles down an unpaved forest road is far more adventurous and a lot more rewarding. Steak or chicken cooked on an open fire under a couple billion stars beats a ten course meal in a five star restaurant anyday.

And the "free" miles? When you compare the cost of accruing them to the value of tickets redeemed, it comes out to an overall 5% discount. I'd rather see that turned into a guaranteed discount for the year, because that is something a corporate travel managers can use to justify flying on Brand X vs. AA.


But again, what does it matter if the money I spend on air travel is coming out of my pocket or the company's pocket? It doesn't change the fact that full-fare travelers are what pretty much cover the base costs of keeping the airline running.

If we start cut back on our travel budgets, the airlines feel that pretty quickly...

 

[TWU informer]

What on earth are you guys discussing here?

I thought we were discussing concessions versus Bankruptcy?

 

[The Goose]

What on earth are you guys discussing here?

I thought we were discussing concessions versus Bankruptcy?

We're just doing the human thing - drifting from hither to yon.

 

[eolesen]

Got me.... As usual, the discussion turns into micro-analysis on the poster as opposed to the topic...


Getting back to the options as 2003.... you're absolutely right.

TWU was presented with the options of preserving some quality of life for the members and giving the company the ability to trim the edges of what was considered protected work (i.e. raising the outsourcing cap from 2555 to 5000 departures per year)

Instead, they chose to keep the fences where they were, and cut everyone's pay. APA did the same thing with regard to their scope clause.

I said it was a dumb decision then, and I think you're agreeing that it was still a dumb decision.

Expecting me work a little harder for my existing paycheck is a lot easier to deal with than working the same amount for less pay.

 

[The Goose]

Got me.... As usual, the discussion turns into micro-analysis on the poster as opposed to the topic...


Getting back to the options as 2003.... you're absolutely right.

TWU was presented with the options of preserving some quality of life for the members and giving the company the ability to trim the edges of what was considered protected work (i.e. raising the outsourcing cap from 2555 to 5000 departures per year)

Instead, they chose to keep the fences where they were, and cut everyone's pay. APA did the same thing with regard to their scope clause.

I said it was a dumb decision then, and I think you're agreeing that it was still a dumb decision.

Expecting me work a little harder for my existing paycheck is a lot easier to deal with than working the same amount for less pay.

As I said, not a judgemental question - just curiousity.

I'm not certain, at this late stage, that the membership's wishes were considered even though input was asked for, and there certainly was no discussion of the ins and outs of any consequence, as I recall.

It appears, at this juncture, all that transpired was for the International's benefit. Yes, people got to keep their jobs that wouldn't have with another decision. It's beginning to appear, though, those actions/that decision only delayed the inevitable unless the third party work picks up enough to justify all the returning heads and not have extra personnel in place simply for a Carty-ish cash burn as in 2003. Little Jimmy didn't have to take a paycut nor did any of his minions.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Some 25% of the travelers make up 75% of AMR's revenues. So, it's guys like me paying $9K for a DFW-CDG round trip who wind up funding your pensions -and- subsidizing the guys going to Disneyworld for $199...

After they build the bridge across the Bering Strait you can drive. Until then you dont have a choice.

😀

 

[eolesen]

I'm just as happy to stay put in the States.... lots to see and especially with the dollar being depressed against the Euro...