Larry Pike of 567 FIRED ?

[swamt]

Overspeed, on 28 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Negative bro. AMFA did not bring any work in due to their negotiating prowess. In fact isn't Mr. Sokol pushing to get the 4th line dropped at PHX? Let's see how AMFA sticks to it's guns there. The new lines arrived due to the rapid addition of aircraft. So you went from 291 aircraft in 1999 to over 600 by 2012. IBT had two lines at 291 or 145 aircraft to each C Check line so now today with around 625 you will have 4 or...wait for it...still one C Check line for every 145 aircraft under the IBT agreement. So AMFA did nothing but perpetuate the IBT past practice. AMFA still riding on the IBT coat tails.


Read WN management's proposals. It will be interesting to see how AMFA "fights" based on what Sokol wants. From AMFA update.

The discussions again started with the Company looking for full relief from having to start the fourth line of heavy maintenance along with the other issues they discussed with the Committee on September 12, 2012.

• Option 1 - Alternative wage scales and other components of pay, change in attendance program (Absent Management Program), no paid lunch, no paid rest, change in backfill language, review of shop work and potential realignment, no downline service for GSE, review of outsource language (headcount per aircraft), day trade reform, language for international downline work, language to insert Technical Training Instructors & Maintenance Controllers classifications into agreement along with separate pay scales and work rules, rewrite of fourth line language, ETOP’s language, specialty training, ability to outsource internationally, review of LOAs #1 and #2 and the elimination of pending grievances except terminations

Option 2 - Alternative wage scales and other components of pay, ETOP’s language, rewrite of fourth line language, headcount per aircraft ratio. We explained we were not going to choose either option and then presented the Company with our section 6 bullet point proposal list. We ended the day agreeing to start work on Article 4 Classifications and inserting Technical Training Instructors & Maintenance Controllers classifications.

At Southwest Airlines Co , which has built a reputation for stellar employee relations despite being the industry's most heavily unionized carrier, concern is rising that the need to control costs could spur labor clashes.

as the saying goes, "reality's a ####!"

Like WNMECH said, this is not the TWU caving to concessions. It is the co's first proposal of their wish list of what they want. As far as the membership is concerned they (the co) can pack sand. Nego has just started, and they will continue to go on for over a year as all past contracts nego have taken, if not longer. You posting the articles about the cost cutting messures is exacally what the co wants all the public to think. It happends everytime our contract becomes amendable, everytime...

 

[777 fixer]

We just had a new hire start on our crew from AA DFW and he had 28 years with AA. I believe this guy will be the leader in previous years at AA and leaving on his own to start all over. This speaks volumes. Good luck to this new employee and, get back to work "probie"...

Proves that the senority excuse is just that, an excuse. For me however there was no way in I was going to start at another airline. Had my fill of the business.

 

[TWU informer]

Rather comical watching the TWU faithful actually hoping for concessions at Southwest so they can try to justify once again the actions of the most docile union in the industry commonly called the TWU.

 

[Overspeed]

Rather comical watching the TWU faithful actually hoping for concessions at Southwest so they can try to justify once again the actions of the most docile union in the industry commonly called the TWU.

Nope. Don't you think it is interesting that this is the first real test AMFA has ever faced? AMFA only "won" when economic conditions were favorable to them. At NW AMFA was negotiating in an environment of record profits. At WN since 1999 AMFA negotiated on the coat tails of the IBT pay raises, record growth, and a company where management was aggressively expanding with abnormally low fuel costs due to a great hedging windfall. Now AMFA must show how good they say they are. Time to put their money where there mouth is. Growth has slowed, hedging advantage is gone, and everyone else has lowered their costs to levels comparable to or lower than WN. This is not going to be easy is it?

How long did the Appearance Techs negotiate for? 3.5 years? This could be a long fight for them and a real test of their "prowess". Kelly and Sokol have stated they cannot absorb increases in costs. Kelly said their advantage has eroded since AA filed BK.

Hey AMFA never backs down right? They didn't back down at NW did they and we know how that turned out.

 

[Overspeed]

Wrong again Overspeed, as normal. AMFA has been and is now nego more maint to come in house. And BTW, how the hell do you know otherwise? You do not. Read the contract dummy. It's all there in writing.
Yes the SWA is trying to get the 4th line removed. They will not succeed. It's a hell no from all. Secondly, it's not gonna be done in PHX it will be done in Dallas. As far as the checks being moved from PHX to Dallas, it had a major issue with parts storage and availability for the line of maint as well as the aging A/C (older 300's).
AMFA is not riding the ibt coat tails as you suggest. AMFA has put the ibt to shame since they were fired from SWA. AMFA has, in fact, filled alot of holes in the past ibt contracts. AMFA has brought in more maint in house than the teamsters have done in their 28 yrs at SWA, Period, end of story. Nice try Overspeed, but you really know nothing about how much work has been brought in house at SWA, rather it was ibt or AMFA. BTW; your little ratio aspect of number of "C" lines done from back then to now is incorrect. Try redoing your resurch and take another guess, your way off, and, wait and see how the "C" check maint will continue to grow in new cities like ALT as well as MCO and other stations.
I still love it how outsiders tell us all how SWA maint is being run. Once again, get all your info correct prior to posting. And pls keep posting, you really are helping the AMFA drive at AA. Carry on gentlemen...

Let me check my "resurch" and the numbers came from your contract and the F41. Simple math arrives at the HC line to aircraft. Aren't the new cities you cite added due to the merger and the IBT AirTran contract? Riding on the IBT coat tails again I see.

Another fun fact. The ratio of AMTs to aircraft has fallen each year since 1999 from 3.7 to 1 to now 2.9 to 1. That is LESS not MORE employees. This is not indicative of your claim of more work being brought in-house. Who's doing this work you speak of? How did this additional work improve job opportunities at WN? Looks like you are creeping closer to the 2.75 per aircraft which means you are giving up jobs as you grow or attrit out staff. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[Overspeed]

Not really.
They always start out asking for the moon.

We gave them our option 1 and 2.

NO and HELL NO.

I will ask you the same question I asked before.
How do you think they will force us to take their option 1,or 2 ?

Answer, they won't.

We are not in bankruptcy and we are still making profits. There is no bankruptcy judge here telling us we have to and we don't have the TWU here telling us we better take their ridicules first offer.

For your sake, I hope you win your fight. WN became a strong company due to its employees, not in spite of them. What's management at WN's leverage? They have the relationship with vendors already on HC overhaul so in the event of going all the way to release. Could that happen? Of course but will it? I would expect your membership would have to decide if the risk outweighed the rewards.

Good luck.

 

[TWU informer]

Nope. Don't you think it is interesting that this is the first real test AMFA has ever faced? AMFA only "won" when economic conditions were favorable to them. At NW AMFA was negotiating in an environment of record profits. At WN since 1999 AMFA negotiated on the coat tails of the IBT pay raises, record growth, and a company where management was aggressively expanding with abnormally low fuel costs due to a great hedging windfall. Now AMFA must show how good they say they are. Time to put their money where there mouth is. Growth has slowed, hedging advantage is gone, and everyone else has lowered their costs to levels comparable to or lower than WN. This is not going to be easy is it?

How long did the Appearance Techs negotiate for? 3.5 years? This could be a long fight for them and a real test of their "prowess". Kelly and Sokol have stated they cannot absorb increases in costs. Kelly said their advantage has eroded since AA filed BK.

Hey AMFA never backs down right? They didn't back down at NW did they and we know how that turned out.

I don't find it interesting at all.

I find it pathetic that you assist in lowering the cost without a fight and then expect AMFA do take a stand while you capitulate even in profitable and good economic times.

It says it all......really.

Gloating about how you caved in and put pressure on them ranks right up there at the very top of the ignorance measurement chart.

I was told SWA managmenet offered to "buy" the fourth line. UPS wages and an early retirement buyout. Will the members take it? I don't know. But you can be assured the members will have control and a say, unlike what you defend.

But hey you keep gloating about having the worst contract in the industry and demanding that some other union stand and fight. It shows us all your true nature. I doubt you will see Louie Key claim he is going to "fight like hell", and then sellout like your appointed dumbass leader did.

 

[swamt]

Rather comical watching the TWU faithful actually hoping for concessions at Southwest so they can try to justify once again the actions of the most docile union in the industry commonly called the TWU.

Didn't look at it that way but your right. Look back and re-read the postings addressing the contract talks at SWA. They are getting behind the co and just hoping Sokol and co get's everything they want. How pathetic. Once again guys, I know you few here are used to that kind of nego's by your wonderfull TWU leadership, however, this is not the TWU and this is no longer the piss-poor teamsters.
Good point out Informer; I was just partaking in some back and forth about our contract openers and it seems we have a small group on here hoping the co will win in nego's. Just happens to be the very same small group that supports TWU and teamsters. Yea that's who I would want to represent me, someone who has caved before, and now would wish for the co to prevail at another airline ONLY to help make their conccessions look better and better, "pathetic I tell you, freakin pathetic!!

 

[swamt]

Let me check my "resurch" and the numbers came from your contract and the F41. Simple math arrives at the HC line to aircraft. Aren't the new cities you cite added due to the merger and the IBT AirTran contract? Riding on the IBT coat tails again I see.

Another fun fact. The ratio of AMTs to aircraft has fallen each year since 1999 from 3.7 to 1 to now 2.9 to 1. That is LESS not MORE employees. This is not indicative of your claim of more work being brought in-house. Who's doing this work you speak of? How did this additional work improve job opportunities at WN? Looks like you are creeping closer to the 2.75 per aircraft which means you are giving up jobs as you grow or attrit out staff. The numbers speak for themselves.

You obviously just throw crap out there hoping someone will believe you.
Answer to your first paragragh is NO! Just because you see the HC numbers going down "per A/C" does not mean we are not growing. Aside from the new A/T employees coming on board, SWA has been hiring thru-out most all of last year, will comtinue to hire, at least, thru 1st half of next year. No. The cities added that I mentioned were not from ibt/AirTran contract language. New maint in Denver directly tied to AMFA in LOA. The added maint we are hearing about in ALT and MCO has absolutely nothing at all to do with the ibt/AirTran language. If it did why are they not already doing maint. other than overnighters there? That ones a no brainer without reading any contract language. AMFA's sec 6 nego contract retained better language than the teamsters had to define what they cannot farm out as far as maint is concerned. Once the 717's were ours, we get the rights to do the added maint I listed before. Again, listen closely now, this is directly tied to AMFA's sec 6 nego contract, has absolutely nothing to do with ibt/AirTran language. Which BTW; the ibt/teamsters volenteered to give their members over to AMFA without a fight, they signed an agreement saying so. Also, once the date of May 2 came and gone the contract at AirTran with the ibt became null and void, trash, gone, history, so pls explain how the hell you could possibly think that all the maint that will be added will results from the ibt/AirTran contract that no longer is in existence????

Why don't you just ask some of the 60-90 new hires if there have been goodjob opertunities at SWA for mechanics. Not to mention the number of mechanic apprentises that the company never stops hiring, it's an on going thing. It's obvious you only look at stats on paper. Once again, nice try to spin everything around again, pls keep posting you are doing a wonderfull job telling all out here how things are going at SWA maint and you don't even work here.

 

[swamt]

I don't find it interesting at all.

I find it pathetic that you assist in lowering the cost without a fight and then expect AMFA do take a stand while you capitulate even in profitable and good economic times.

It says it all......really.

Gloating about how you caved in and put pressure on them ranks right up there at the very top of the ignorance measurement chart.

I was told SWA managmenet offered to "buy" the fourth line. UPS wages and an early retirement buyout. Will the members take it? I don't know. But you can be assured the members will have control and a say, unlike what you defend.

But hey you keep gloating about having the worst contract in the industry and demanding that some other union stand and fight. It shows us all your true nature. I doubt you will see Louie Key claim he is going to "fight like hell", and then sellout like your appointed dumbass leader did.

Not sure where you get your info but you are correct. SWA has offered to "buy back" the 4th line. AMFA has already told the co that nothing will be considered for their members to vote on if removing the 4th line of maint is in there. In other words, it won't come to the floor for a vote. I don't think the co has ever stated they would pay us UPS rates, (they hate comp us to UPS) however, they did say they would compensate us very well in hourly wages if they could get rid of 4th line. I can tell you right now, UPS rates will not cut it. Nothing will cut it to get rid of 4th line. The early buy-out also was tossed around as well with a rather large number on the buy, and promiced to be greater than the last one which was 75K. Rumors were running mad when this started to get around, with numbers ranging anywhere from 80K up to 150K but co never exposed the exact numbers.
Just to give you an idea of how bad the co wants the 4th line, we have also heard of an added bonus gonna be added as well. This is a yearly bonus for every year that that 4th line is gone.

 

[WNMECH]

For your sake, I hope you win your fight. WN became a strong company due to its employees, not in spite of them. What's management at WN's leverage? They have the relationship with vendors already on HC overhaul so in the event of going all the way to release. Could that happen? Of course but will it? I would expect your membership would have to decide if the risk outweighed the rewards.

Good luck.

Do you not know the slightest thing about how to negotiate?

We just passed over openers and you are talking release. Unbelievable.

We are just getting started and we do have leverage also. Plenty.

So don't you worry your little head over our negotiations.
We handle ourselves just fine.

 

[lineguy43]

Nope. Don't you think it is interesting that this is the first real test AMFA has ever faced? AMFA only "won" when economic conditions were favorable to them. At NW AMFA was negotiating in an environment of record profits. At WN since 1999 AMFA negotiated on the coat tails of the IBT pay raises, record growth, and a company where management was aggressively expanding with abnormally low fuel costs due to a great hedging windfall. Now AMFA must show how good they say they are. Time to put their money where there mouth is. Growth has slowed, hedging advantage is gone, and everyone else has lowered their costs to levels comparable to or lower than WN. This is not going to be easy is it?

How long did the Appearance Techs negotiate for? 3.5 years? This could be a long fight for them and a real test of their "prowess". Kelly and Sokol have stated they cannot absorb increases in costs. Kelly said their advantage has eroded since AA filed BK.

Hey AMFA never backs down right? They didn't back down at NW did they and we know how that turned out.

You are most certainly correct that AMFA at NW was negotiating in good times..That was the point. The Iam also negotiated in this environment for us at NW and what they brought back touting it as great contract was a total slap in the face to all of us. It is what drove even the Iam lovers in MSP to AMFA if a union cannot bring back a decent contract in the best of times they need to go and thats precisely what we did we showed the Iam the door..Thats what you guys at AA need to do with the Twu.

 

[Bob Owens]

We are not in bankruptcy and we are still making profits. There is no bankruptcy judge here telling us we have to and we don't have the TWU here telling us we better take their ridicules first offer.

The bankruptcy judge never told us we had to give them anything, the lawyers that the International hired and the ATD did.

 

[Overspeed]

Do you not know the slightest thing about how to negotiate?

We just passed over openers and you are talking release. Unbelievable.

We are just getting started and we do have leverage also. Plenty.

So don't you worry your little head over our negotiations.
We handle ourselves just fine.

Yes I do understand negotiations very well. Your leverage is self-help just ask "Full Release" Bob. If you have leverage - job actions - then you must be prepared to use it. Sounds like from swamt that the want to buy out your overhaul line. Happy negotiating and a "buy back" is a giveback.

 

[TWU informer]

Yes I do understand negotiations very well. Your leverage is self-help just ask "Full Release" Bob. If you have leverage - job actions - then you must be prepared to use it. Sounds like from swamt that the want to buy out your overhaul line. Happy negotiating and a "buy back" is a giveback.

No losing your pension, retirement medical, work rules, and headcount in exchange for more company outsourcing is a giveback.

You should be an expert, since you just orchestrated massive givebacks including heavy line work loss.

GAINING something is exchange would be different than anything you and the TWU has done.