LABOR COALITION NEEDED
- Thread starter LavMan
- Start date
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On 7/6/2003 4:05:39 PM av60 wrote:
Now theres a laugh.
We couldn''t even get a vote right.
Our motto should read "we will rollover if provoked".
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With an attitude like yours, why don''t you help Dave and his merry gang of thieves out and just laydown when they send the airbii to an MRO for overhaul!On 7/6/2003 4:05:39 PM av60 wrote:
Now theres a laugh.
We couldn''t even get a vote right.
Our motto should read "we will rollover if provoked".
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"With an attitude like yours, why don''t you help Dave and his merry gang of thieves out and just laydown when they send the airbii to an MRO for overhaul!"
I Voted "NO" 3 times can you say the same?
So who "layed down" with who?
Now run along an agc or ceo must be calling.
I Voted "NO" 3 times can you say the same?
So who "layed down" with who?
Now run along an agc or ceo must be calling.
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On 7/6/2003 5:37:15 PM LavMan wrote:
I will not run along and my classification took the biggest hit, so why don''t you inform yourself first instead of attacking.
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If you voted "YES" then you shouldn''t complain.On 7/6/2003 5:37:15 PM LavMan wrote:
I will not run along and my classification took the biggest hit, so why don''t you inform yourself first instead of attacking.
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You knew what you were voting for right?
Be glad that you classification still exists at all. Its a very popular belief among many, that the rest of M&R took a bigger hit just to keep you employed at all.
And that is not meant as an attack at all, just stating what is being said.
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On 7/5/2003 3:30:22 PM ClueByFour wrote:
Well, we''ve sucessfully ducked around the issue--we''ll try again.
The current "scope" and job classification BS among the ground employees is part of the problems at any major who does not follow the WN line of thinking.
I often sit in T-1 at LAX and watch the ops of US and LUV side by side. It amazes me how much more efficient the WN crews are. And LAX seems to be one of the better stations in the US system, from what I''ve seen.
You guys can repeat the union line about "the company negotiated it" until the cows come home.
The best move you could possibly do is work with CWA to get anybody on/around the ramp in one classificaton under a common union and cross-utilize everybody. Of course, that''d go directly against the idea of fetherbedding and you would have to integrate two workgroups, which would take years.
BTW, LavMan, out here in the "real world" we are free to utilize folks where their talents make the most sense. Poeple out here in the "Real" world _want_ to have as many different skillsets as possible, as in the "real" world, that is how one gets ahead of the curve (instead of killing time in a job and building seniority).
In a sense, I''m more real than you can possibly comprehend.
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------------------------------------------------------------On 7/5/2003 3:30:22 PM ClueByFour wrote:
Well, we''ve sucessfully ducked around the issue--we''ll try again.
The current "scope" and job classification BS among the ground employees is part of the problems at any major who does not follow the WN line of thinking.
I often sit in T-1 at LAX and watch the ops of US and LUV side by side. It amazes me how much more efficient the WN crews are. And LAX seems to be one of the better stations in the US system, from what I''ve seen.
You guys can repeat the union line about "the company negotiated it" until the cows come home.
The best move you could possibly do is work with CWA to get anybody on/around the ramp in one classificaton under a common union and cross-utilize everybody. Of course, that''d go directly against the idea of fetherbedding and you would have to integrate two workgroups, which would take years.
BTW, LavMan, out here in the "real world" we are free to utilize folks where their talents make the most sense. Poeple out here in the "Real" world _want_ to have as many different skillsets as possible, as in the "real" world, that is how one gets ahead of the curve (instead of killing time in a job and building seniority).
In a sense, I''m more real than you can possibly comprehend.
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Hello, ClueByFour (love the handle)
Let me take a swing at this one.
First, the bona fides - I''m old school, and once worked for the finest airline aloft. I''ve held every job in a station except manager, and work in big''un''s and little un''s.
Even in the old days, Piedmont allowed specialization in the large stations. it was just too costly, training-wise, to cross utilize on a large scale, as the work resembled a factory or production line. Now, if you were fleet service, you were expected to maintain qualifications in EVERY fleet service function - operations, weight and balance, deicing, fueling, airstarts, etc. As customer service and fleet service were covered by the same policy book, and in the same department, transfer between groups was a regular thing - I am a former customer service agent.
In the medium stations, some cross-utilization occurred, mainly with the vacation relief agents.
In the small station I landed in, ALL personnel worked ALL functions, including air freight. You literally could work counter one day, gate the next, ramp the third, freight the fourth, and operations the fifth. It became a joke amongst us and our regulars that we could ticket them, check their bags, load their bags, process them at the gate, do the weight and balance, and dispatch the flight - all on the same flight! I told many don''t be too surprised when I head for the cockpit - anything could happen!
I am of the opinion how we operated in each of the three cases made good economic sense. As PI was unencumbered by unions, agent-wise, and judging from the financial results, a lot of folks agreed.
Now, fast forward to the US Air era. AL separated fleet from customer service in ALL stations. We were still under the same policy guide, and could still transfer between groups, but the days of cross-utilization were mostly over. Now this had to be done for a brief period of time to obtain a ''snapshot'' of who could and couldn''t vote, post-merger, to retain or decertify the IBT(the IBT was decertified). But after that process, cross-utilization was infrequently used.
Here''s the frosting on the cake. The CWA and IAM contracts prescribe cross-utilization in class II stations. IT NEVER HAPPENS! I''ve seen overtime paid in fleet service when there was an idle customer service vacation relief agent available. Many, many times. Back in 99 we still had a remnant of cross-utilization. While discussing this with my manager, he said,"....we won''t be doing anymore cross-utilization." Could have knocked me over with a feather!
This is just one more reason I''m pissed with management - the SOB''s can''t use the tools they''ve got, except the ''knife''.
ClueByFour
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Cross utilization would do two things:
1. Take the excuse away from management (from what I''m reading, this might already be an issue).
2. Everyone is on the same payscale. I believe that this can be beneficial for all, in the end, provided that it is played smartly.
3. You don''t have whipsawing amongst the workgroups (eg, this station is "mainline expressed" that station loses utility, etc.
4. Most importantly, you have a flexible workgroup. Ultimately, this lack of flexibility is one of the things that allowed management to absolutely decimate various workgroups in the context of the chapter 11 driven concessions.
I''ve only ever had one chance in many years of flying US to have the same person check me in, load my bags, and "dispatch" the aircraft--and that was at LEB, which I understand has been closed as a station. Given, it was express, but I don''t see any reason why it can''t be done at larger stations: except for the union issues.
1. Take the excuse away from management (from what I''m reading, this might already be an issue).
2. Everyone is on the same payscale. I believe that this can be beneficial for all, in the end, provided that it is played smartly.
3. You don''t have whipsawing amongst the workgroups (eg, this station is "mainline expressed" that station loses utility, etc.
4. Most importantly, you have a flexible workgroup. Ultimately, this lack of flexibility is one of the things that allowed management to absolutely decimate various workgroups in the context of the chapter 11 driven concessions.
I''ve only ever had one chance in many years of flying US to have the same person check me in, load my bags, and "dispatch" the aircraft--and that was at LEB, which I understand has been closed as a station. Given, it was express, but I don''t see any reason why it can''t be done at larger stations: except for the union issues.
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On 7/5/2003 3:30:22 PM ClueByFour wrote:
I often sit in T-1 at LAX and watch the ops of US and LUV side by side It amazes me how much more efficient the WN crews are. And LAX seems to be one of the better stations in the US system, from what I've seen.
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Clue, On 7/5/2003 3:30:22 PM ClueByFour wrote:
I often sit in T-1 at LAX and watch the ops of US and LUV side by side It amazes me how much more efficient the WN crews are. And LAX seems to be one of the better stations in the US system, from what I've seen.
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First of all let me say thank you. I'm one of those people at LAX that your watching from the terminal. To hear you say that LAX is one of the better stations in the system (in your opinion of course) is one of the best compliments I've heard in a long time, again thank you.
Southwest appears to be more efficient because their staffed properly. Management at WN knows how many people it takes to do a particular job and they give them the people they need to do that job.
Up until about a month ago we were staffed to the proper levels that's why we were capable of doing such an outstanding job, now were trying to do the same job with half the people. Not only has the quality of our work suffered but job injuries are on the rise as well.
What really gets me about all this is upper Management reads this board they read the problems that we as employees are facing. They know were under staffed, they know their asking us to do the impossible, their well aware of the financial hardship were all facing but yet they keep asking us to do more with less for less.
Bob, the contract we speak of is covered by a federal law, the Railway Labor Act, the company cannot make unilateral changes to our contract without being in violation of federal law which one option is to seek self-help.
Like I said, make some alternate travel plans if Dave and his merry band of thieves tries to steal our airbus work from us.
Like I said, make some alternate travel plans if Dave and his merry band of thieves tries to steal our airbus work from us.
PITbull
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On 7/6/2003 6:25:11 PM av60 wrote:
You knew what you were voting for right?
Be glad that you classification still exists at all. Its a very popular belief among many, that the rest of M&R took a bigger hit just to keep you employed at all.
And that is not meant as an attack at all, just stating what is being said.
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On 7/6/2003 6:25:11 PM av60 wrote:
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On 7/6/2003 5:37:15 PM LavMan wrote:
I will not run along and my classification took the biggest hit, so why don''t you inform yourself first instead of attacking. 
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If you voted "YES" then you shouldn''t complain.On 7/6/2003 5:37:15 PM LavMan wrote:
I will not run along and my classification took the biggest hit, so why don''t you inform yourself first instead of attacking. 
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You knew what you were voting for right?
Be glad that you classification still exists at all. Its a very popular belief among many, that the rest of M&R took a bigger hit just to keep you employed at all.
And that is not meant as an attack at all, just stating what is being said.
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No. Actually the language WE voted on is being violated by mangement...Medical, 5%, Sick penalty, Understaffing claim denials, new reserve language...that''s just about every piece in the winter concession.
SO...NO WE DID NOT RATIFY WHAT THEY ARE TAKING FROM US! MANAGEMENT JUST HELPS THEMSELVES TO ANY COST SAVINGS THEY FEEL LIKE...and tells you just go grieve it.
PITbull
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On 7/5/2003 1:43:49 PM PineyBob wrote:
LavMan,
With all due respect, the scope clauses are what brought you to the place you are today! Negotiating is all about positioning, not of right and wrong, fair or unfair. Your battle is in the court of public opinion not the NLRB.
If you become very vocal and very public with a position that says :
"We don't think US Airways has done enough in cutting of costs", "we want to look at the books and redefine they way we as labor conduct ourselves, come up with ways to save even more money and then share that savings with the company. We realize that the only true job security for our members is a profitable well run airline in a growth mode! We are determined to do all we can to help Management acheive that goal!"
When that statement appears in the Wall Street Journal who is on the defensive? Labor or Management? When the other guy is on the defensive is when you press your advantage! The public will look at you differently! Stick to arguing scope clause and you will be seen as a lazy union drone out to milk the last drop from a dying cow!
Right now Labor has a golden opportunity to turn the meltdown of the airline industry into a positive message that would help the people who work at airlines today, help organizing efforts in other unrelated industries and help paint Big Labor in a different light to the general public. Will it happen? I doubt it! And the sad part of that is that the employees & customers of US will be worse off.
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On 7/5/2003 1:43:49 PM PineyBob wrote:
LavMan,
With all due respect, the scope clauses are what brought you to the place you are today! Negotiating is all about positioning, not of right and wrong, fair or unfair. Your battle is in the court of public opinion not the NLRB.
If you become very vocal and very public with a position that says :
"We don't think US Airways has done enough in cutting of costs", "we want to look at the books and redefine they way we as labor conduct ourselves, come up with ways to save even more money and then share that savings with the company. We realize that the only true job security for our members is a profitable well run airline in a growth mode! We are determined to do all we can to help Management acheive that goal!"
When that statement appears in the Wall Street Journal who is on the defensive? Labor or Management? When the other guy is on the defensive is when you press your advantage! The public will look at you differently! Stick to arguing scope clause and you will be seen as a lazy union drone out to milk the last drop from a dying cow!
Right now Labor has a golden opportunity to turn the meltdown of the airline industry into a positive message that would help the people who work at airlines today, help organizing efforts in other unrelated industries and help paint Big Labor in a different light to the general public. Will it happen? I doubt it! And the sad part of that is that the employees & customers of US will be worse off.
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Bob,
I know I said I was going to stay off these boards to settle some issues we have, but when I read this stuff it blows me away.
Let's part some hair. Union scope did not bring us where we are today. I don't know why folks mix apples and oranges...is it because it sounds tooty fruity or because they just can. Scope clause allowed union memberships to grow (unions are a business) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, it gave folks job opportunities and thus, CONTRIBUTE to the FRANCHISE of this corporation, while also being able to support thier families. That is UNTIL the "jackels" came on board. As I have said repeatedly, unions are always asked to give when economy changes, and no one is disputing contributing...but when the average worker at U can not survive financially...then houston, its a major friggen problem. And when you imply that labor wages and benfits were to overblown, WELL, MANGEMENT TOOK IT EVEN FROM THE WORKER WHO MAKES LESS THAN $25,000 A YEAR. They took it from every walk of life on this property...if you made more they took all of it. (just ask the pilots) If you made a little less, you got hit, as well. Like I said before, SATAN could take lessons from these guys.
I find it positively predictable that the folks who complain about unions are almost always senior mangement types that talk out of one side of their mouths regarding corporation viability and on the otherside...GIVE THEMSELVES PERKS, BONUSES, STOCK (handed to them) outrageous salaries. They give these things to themselves even if the corporation is doing poorly. To get them to give takes major scrutiny and public criticism to make them give anything. I am sure you all read that Kraft Corporation gave senior execustives $40-$50,000 dollar company vehicles this year..why? Cause they had a windfall. Didn't give it to the factory worker. Hell, management figures they have stock through their 401K...noooo, gave it to themselves PLUS THE DAMN STOCK. How I know this, my sister is a VP, and works with Craft Execs.
These are the same folks that complain about those damn union workers who are just always, always, looking for that damn nickle raise....damn them. AND, HOW DARE THEY TRY TO CREATE WORK FOR OTHER WORKERS. God, the lazy, no good for nothing union worker who dares to open his/her mouth for a few bucks to WHAT? Before you know it, they'll be sending their kids to college to compete against my "silver- spooned kid".
AND THOSE DAMN UNION PEOPLE BETTER NOT MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO MOVE INTO MY NEIGHBORHOOD. Geez, they'll be thinking us mangement folks "common" before you know it!
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On 7/6/2003 9:41:06 AM LavMan wrote:
Just be prepared in October to use another airline if Dave and his merry band of thieves farm out the airbus work and you will see who has the power.
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what of the ''coalition''??? with no support from our "brothers and sisters" we''re screwed.so where are we now with a very weak coalition.?....reminds me of NIMBY...."not in my back yard"...and as they say in PIT hangar 1-2 "viva la severance".........On 7/6/2003 9:41:06 AM LavMan wrote:
Just be prepared in October to use another airline if Dave and his merry band of thieves farm out the airbus work and you will see who has the power.
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