Judge Rejects Deal With United's Pilots

[Fly]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (as if!!! you will) Every group signed up for Esop except the flight attendants (the amount they wanted from us was too rich for our blood, we couldn't afford to join).......every employee group gave up lots to join, BUT they were promised a "seemless contract" to redeem their money back. THEN, the pilots contract expired and they were, as we all were, blown away to find that management had NO intention of honoring that early promise for everything these people gave up. (At the same time, or close to it, the mechanics contract expired too...and they too were treated like garbage also.......SURPRISE!!!)

The Summer of Hell 2000!!!! OMG......for the first time ever, I hid my tags away in my bag while trying to commute home. I was ashamed. Not because the pilots were wrong (they weren't wrong) but because the disruption it caused. I totally understand why you did that BUT it was seriously tough on those of us stuck with these passengers hours on end. (just admit it.....none of the pilots admits to what WE, the flight attendants and CS employees, went through...and every other front end employee)

I think management, surprise again, was the cause of this but as long as the pilots refuse to admit what really happened the pain will never go away (nor the blame).

Anyway.......that's how I saw it!

 

[Bear96]

The Summer of Hell 2000!!!! OMG......for the first time ever, I hid my tags away in my bag while trying to commute home. I was ashamed. Not because the pilots were wrong (they weren't wrong) but because the disruption it caused. I totally understand why you did that BUT it was seriously tough on those of us stuck with these passengers hours on end. (just admit it.....none of the pilots admits to what WE, the flight attendants and CS employees, went through...and every other front end employee)

I think management, surprise again, was the cause of this but as long as the pilots refuse to admit what really happened the pain will never go away (nor the blame).

Anyway.......that's how I saw it!

[post="237386"][/post]​

That kinda sums up my feelings too. I thought management was totally in the wrong with how they handled the "seamless contract" they promised the pilots, and I didn't blame them one bit for how they reacted. During that summer I actually DEFENDED the pilots when F/As and CSRs would start whining about what was happening. (And yes, there certainly were other problems with weather and ATC and terminal congestion due to aggressive scheduling by UA and others that were unique to that summer as well, so it is definitly wrong to blame the pilots for every delay / cancellation / whatever.)

Now though it kinda ticks me off how many pilots pretend nothing ever happened, while those of us who lived through it on the other side of the cockpit door know otherwise, and how many pilots refuse to acknowledge the real consequences of it.

I am not normally one to live in the past, and if I were a pilot reading this I would be the first to say "It was FIVE YEARS AGO, get over it already!" (and, "WTF does that have to do with the subject of this thread???!!!"). There is some validity both of those points, but there is also something here for those pilots to reflect on, considering so many of your colleagues are still upset about it.

I guess the take-away from all this, five years later, is that as long as some pilots keep on pretending that it was no big deal, they should expect to keep on getting a rise out of those of us who had to deal with the aftermath, first hand, day in and day out, for many long months.

 

[spacewaitress]

I am not normally one to live in the past, and if I were a pilot reading this I would be the first to say "It was FIVE YEARS AGO, get over it already!"

Oh please...how many pilots are hanging on to the strike of '85, and that was 20 years ago. Preaching to the choir.

 

[Blues`]

Let's talk about "double standards"
1st The pilots paid out about 4 times the amount you cite as a loss (assuming your inaccurate number is even close to reality), having bought and paid for over 25% of the company. A good part of that cash went straight to the balance sheet. Do you go to the neighbor's house and complain about the color they paint the walls? you had no ownership stake in UAL. It wasn't your company.
2nd Unless you grew up paying a nickle to see the silent movie matinee, the pilots actually SAVED your job. Without that summer and the pilot contract, the buyout would have gone through. UAL would have assumed EVERY DIME of U's debt (and pension obligations), PLUS an additional 4 billion by buying the shares of a company for $60 bucks each when AMR walked away from the sme deal at $27 for being "too expensive" IF UAL (an it's a BIG if) could have survived that fiasco after 911, then your AFA pals at U, with higher seniority would be sending you postcards from HKG while you sat at home furloughed. let's see 4 billion (not counting U's debt) - 750 million = 3.25 billion. Seems you owe us money.

[post="237171"][/post]​

the hubris of this man staggers the imagination

 

[Bizman]

Oh please...how many pilots are hanging on to the strike of '85, and that was 20 years ago. Preaching to the choir.

[post="237439"][/post]​

This is the most accurate post I have seen on all these boards!

 

[Busdrvr]

the hubris of this man staggers the imagination

[post="237552"][/post]​

As does the ignorance and stupudity of this one....

 

[Winglet]

The summer of 2000 was Goodwin's fault 100%. He slow-leaked the pilots on negotiations, then made a schedule that HE KNEW he couldn't fly without the goodwill and voluntary overtime by the pilots. What did that stupid shifty dunce THINK was going to happen???

Then when it was all over and he PO'd his customers, he settled for a contract that was MORE expensive than what he could have had before it all started.

Summer of 2000 was just another example of inept, incoherent, and just plain stupid UAL management . . . . . I wonder how much the execs got in bonuses for that.

 

[casual rat]

I think the whole thing (Summer of 2000) was a 'purpose pitch' in that the Industry wanted this to happen. The only variable was whether the Unions would 'swing' or 'take' the pitch. The Pilot group 'swung' and missed. If one recalls, at the time, there were Mechanics sipping the AMFA Kool-Aid believing(seriously) that they could command 6 figure incomes while playing Ping Pong. That's just too much power over Management. So Management's response was putting the carrier in precarious waters in an effort to put downward pressure on wages and work rules--for all groups. USAir was a smokescreen IMHO, designed to deflect profits away. 9/11 served to accelerate their plans. If you look at it, we'll be making less than we were in 2000, and they got productivity increases that they would have never seen--if those two events didn't occur. The ATA exists for a reason--it's an Airline Management Lobbying concern, they talk! Goodwin was a buffoon that the 'real players' used as a diversion. He became the company 'punching bag'. The same players who used him are still on the payroll. With long-term contracts in place, and employees reeling from the layoffs, it looks pretty successful in two years, at least to me. Why do you think profit sharing is an issue? Fares may hold in the short term, but you can bet they'll go up when this all shakes out. If that's not the case, seamless contracts should have happened, but they didn't for reasons we're just starting to see. Please, don't call me Fox Mulder.

 

[The Ronin]

I think the whole thing (Summer of 2000) was a 'purpose pitch' in that the Industry wanted this to happen. The only variable was whether the Unions would 'swing' or 'take' the pitch. The Pilot group 'swung' and missed. If one recalls, at the time, there were Mechanics sipping the AMFA Kool-Aid believing(seriously) that they could command 6 figure incomes while playing Ping Pong. That's just too much power over Management. So Management's response was putting the carrier in precarious waters in an effort to put downward pressure on wages and work rules--for all groups. USAir was a smokescreen IMHO, designed to deflect profits away. 9/11 served to accelerate their plans. If you look at it, we'll be making less than we were in 2000, and they got productivity increases that they would have never seen--if those two events didn't occur. The ATA exists for a reason--it's an Airline Management Lobbying concern, they talk! Goodwin was a buffoon that the 'real players' used as a diversion. He became the company 'punching bag'. The same players who used him are still on the payroll. With long-term contracts in place, and employees reeling from the layoffs, it looks pretty successful in two years, at least to me. Why do you think profit sharing is an issue? Fares may hold in the short term, but you can bet they'll go up when this all shakes out. If that's not the case, seamless contracts should have happened, but they didn't for reasons we're just starting to see. Please, don't call me Fox Mulder.

[post="237736"][/post]​

You'll be in a "rocker" or dead before you see this whole thing shake out...and I find it doubtful you'll be for working UAL either....Management doesn't have a clue or plan...past or present. Your premise that these events are the result of "deliberate planning" are laughable....there is no such animal at UAL...

 

[UAL_TECH]

The summer of 2000 was Goodwin's fault 100%. He slow-leaked the pilots on negotiations, then made a schedule that HE KNEW he couldn't fly without the goodwill and voluntary overtime by the pilots. What did that stupid shifty dunce THINK was going to happen???
Then when it was all over and he PO'd his customers, he settled for a contract that was MORE expensive than what he could have had before it all started.
Summer of 2000 was just another example of inept, incoherent, and just plain stupid UAL management . . . . . I wonder how much the execs got in bonuses for that.

Sounds pretty accurate to me!

You'll be in a "rocker" or dead before you see this whole thing shake out...and I find it doubtful you'll be for working UAL either....Management doesn't have a clue or plan...past or present. Your premise that these events are the result of "deliberate planning" are laughable....there is no such animal at UAL..

Yep, this one is another accurate post!

I think the whole thing (Summer of 2000) was a 'purpose pitch' in that the Industry wanted this to happen. The only variable was whether the Unions would 'swing' or 'take' the pitch. The Pilot group 'swung' and missed. If one recalls, at the time, there were Mechanics sipping the AMFA Kool-Aid believing(seriously) that they could command 6 figure incomes while playing Ping Pong. That's just too much power over Management. So Management's response was putting the carrier in precarious waters in an effort to put downward pressure on wages and work rules--for all groups. USAir was a smokescreen IMHO, designed to deflect profits away. 9/11 served to accelerate their plans. If you look at it, we'll be making less than we were in 2000, and they got productivity increases that they would have never seen--if those two events didn't occur. The ATA exists for a reason--it's an Airline Management Lobbying concern, they talk! Goodwin was a buffoon that the 'real players' used as a diversion. He became the company 'punching bag'. The same players who used him are still on the payroll. With long-term contracts in place, and employees reeling from the layoffs, it looks pretty successful in two years, at least to me. Why do you think profit sharing is an issue? Fares may hold in the short term, but you can bet they'll go up when this all shakes out. If that's not the case, seamless contracts should have happened, but they didn't for reasons we're just starting to see. Please, don't call me Fox Mulder.

This is too weird even for the X-Files, I was thinking more of Barney Fife.

Maybe you had better lay off of the 'Kool-Aid' yourself Barney

B) UT

 

[tinpadro]

I believe ONLY the employees have a clue as to where The Empire will be headed. Yes the Mgt has the cards in BK court but only the employees will determine if that hand is worth it. I believe some sort of employee summit, if there is such a thing can determine the course here. Mgt clearly has no true direction and is only covering their ass (sorry to say). Its too much save my job and not enough what the hell needs to be done here. Even local mgt says they have no idea whats going on. If The Empire wants to win this game then dammit play to win. This BS being played out is foolish not to mention dangerous with all the jobs and retirees at stake and The Empire is way too big to act this stupid. Eliminate the dead wood in the ranks not just the CEO and for Heavens sake, play to win.

that is all,

EM

 

[Blues`]

As does the ignorance and stupudity of this one....

[post="237705"][/post]​

one word.. spellcheck, nah that would be stupud

but as i have said before, i've walked the talk... i doubt you can say the same

 

[UAL_TECH]

I believe ONLY the employees have a clue as to where The Empire will be headed. Yes the Mgt has the cards in BK court but only the employees will determine if that hand is worth it. I believe some sort of employee summit, if there is such a thing can determine the course here. Mgt clearly has no true direction and is only covering their ass (sorry to say). Its too much save my job and not enough what the hell needs to be done here. Even local mgt says they have no idea whats going on. If The Empire wants to win this game then dammit play to win. This BS being played out is foolish not to mention dangerous with all the jobs and retirees at stake and The Empire is way too big to act this stupid. Eliminate the dead wood in the ranks not just the CEO and for Heavens sake, play to win.

that is all,

EM

[post="237909"][/post]​

Well, you have certainly said a mouthful!!!

Oh, the stories I could tell if I had the time and inclination!!!

We, the ‘worker bees’, have been trying to make ‘intelligent’ changes for years!!! And our only backlash has been from the archaic ‘top down’ managerial decisions.
The implementation of ‘Lean’ is yet another ‘smoke & mirrors’ fiasco. Not saying that Lean could not help, but the ‘bobble headed’ management staff will not implement it as they have not implemented numerous cost saving ideas in the past.

After the initial ESOP, there was an initiative to ‘rif’ inefficient first-line supervisors and managers and make ‘everyone’ resubmit for their positions. How did this work out? Shuffle the deck…(same cards).
After the ‘deal’ everyone is still in place, WTF???

If the UAL Management ‘TEAM’ is serious about implementing ‘LEAN’ then why do we still have the same management headcount with half the employees?

Is this ‘Lean’?

If we could eliminate the ‘dead wood’, then we would certainly be ‘Hell on Wings!!!’.

Anyway, I feel much better now………

B) UT

 

[uafa21]

tinparfdo - I don't think management will hold the cards much longer in BK. I think the judge realises he is dealing with a bunch of idiots.

 

[Winglet]

I think the judge realises he is dealing with a bunch of idiots.

[post="237947"][/post]​

U's management consists of a bunch of idiots, but their judge seems to acquiese to anything they want.