JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[NYer]

Tim stay on point and stop trying to suck up to NYer. The readers know who has been fairly consistently accurate over those that haven't been already. Painting a picture over an original is low class and ruins a perfectly good work of art.

Wages are highly important in an individual's overall economic situation. Had we "locked" that in 8 months ago here's what ABSOLUTELY would have happened. We would have been at $26.54 per hour. Delta would not have propelled their ramp by another 14% and UAL would not have leapt over that. Plain and simply because it would have been uncompetitive over our wage rates.

Delta probably would have went 4% above us and still would have lost half the value on their PS. Munoz would have went a percentage or two above that, and Parker "may" have matched to try and keep labor peace (Maybe)

But had the Association locked in there is not even any guarantee that any of that would have occurred. Again the entire industry for Fleet wages would probably right now had capped out at $26 and change with a 2% per year raise over the life of the 5 year deal.

You're being incredibly naive if you think we would still be where we are right now. Extremely naive in fact.

 
Good grief. You give others a hard time because their posts are definitive...But here you go being definitive yourself: "Had we "locked" that in 8 months ago here's what ABSOLUTELY would have happened..."
 
8 months ago was January. Delta gave their 14% in September 2015, so they already had their raises announced by January. The United Negotiations started in February so I'm pretty sure our Negotiating Committee would've had their eyes on those talks and made sure we would be above them, as we are now. As a matter of fact, their $29.87 pay rates haven't even started, they go to that rate in November. 
 
The arguments we've all been having wasn't to "rush" a deal as you try to portray things, but to have been prepared to negotiate in June of 2015, right after the NMB certified the Association. Instead, there were about 6 months of prep time that could have been done while waiting for the NMB decision.
 
So far, negotiations have taken 8 months, you believe they will be done by the end of the year which gives us a 12 month timeline (won't happen by the end of the year, btw). If we would have been ready by June 2015 to start negotiations 8 months brings us to February 2016, and another 4 months being us to June 2016 (using YOUR timeline). That means we would have the same raises and a finished JCBA only if they were ready to go.
 
As it stands, this Wage Adjustment will make the rest of the JCBA come back to us at a much slower pace.

 

[NYer]

Maybe the NY President didn't want to be a part of the negotiations. And Mr Murphy still has never been in negotiations and was not elected to his Presidential position like the MIA President was.

Still seems to me as if there is more to this story than is being made public? Do you know the MIA President NYer? Maybe the decision has to do more with his personal character than anything else?

Still trying to pigeonhole me to one item I see. Sorry that I'm not letting you guide that narrative. Besides in both debates and boxing you should never confine yourself to the ropes unless you want to get knocked the F out.

 
Well, if the decision was made due to personal feelings, then that is a disservice to the Members that voted for him. If your theory is correct, it doesn't paint the decision makers in a very flattering light. Of course, the guys you ran with was that Slate's immediate competition so it seems natural you would continue to characterize this situation with a personal slant.
 
A debate entails points and counterpoints, not avoidance and misdirection. =/

 

[NYer]

I just heard that the MIA President is trying to blame the former President as the reason he was not chosen. Now that has to be just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Stupid as a matter of fact if anyone buys it.

 
Being condescending and disparaging the intelligence of those that don't buy into your rhetoric is really not the way to have a conversation or a debate.

 

[WeAAsles]

Good grief. You give others a hard time because their posts are definitive...But here you go being definitive yourself: "Had we "locked" that in 8 months ago here's what ABSOLUTELY would have happened..."
 
8 months ago was January. Delta gave their 14% in September 2015, so they already had their raises announced by January. The United Negotiations started in February so I'm pretty sure our Negotiating Committee would've had their eyes on those talks and made sure we would be above them, as we are now. As a matter of fact, their $29.87 pay rates haven't even started, they go to that rate in November. 
 
The arguments we've all been having wasn't to "rush" a deal as you try to portray things, but to have been prepared to negotiate in June of 2015, right after the NMB certified the Association. Instead, there were about 6 months of prep time that could have been done while waiting for the NMB decision.
 
So far, negotiations have taken 8 months, you believe they will be done by the end of the year which gives us a 12 month timeline (won't happen by the end of the year, btw). If we would have been ready by June 2015 to start negotiations 8 months brings us to February 2016, and another 4 months being us to June 2016 (using YOUR timeline). That means we would have the same raises and a finished JCBA only if they were ready to go.
 
As it stands, this Wage Adjustment will make the rest of the JCBA come back to us at a much slower pace.

Well you stick with your opinions and predictions and I'll stick with mine. Just remember and don't spin. You state again absolutely this will not be done by the end of the year. And I believe it will be. And I also believe that being the last to come to terms will benefit us far more (long term) over had we been first to secure a deal.

I believe your problem has always been that you think short term small picture over long term big picture. You always come across as desperate. Desperate people are lousy Chess players.

Do you play Chess NYer?

 

[WeAAsles]

Well, if the decision was made due to personal feelings, then that is a disservice to the Members that voted for him. If your theory is correct, it doesn't paint the decision makers in a very flattering light. Of course, the guys you ran with was that Slate's immediate competition so it seems natural you would continue to characterize this situation with a personal slant.
 
A debate entails points and counterpoints, not avoidance and misdirection. =/

A real Gentlemans debate is a civil exercise. Neither side would purposely try to leave out or avoid every aspect of the subject. The debate itself to those individuals is more important than whether or not one beats the other.

It's about extending knowledge and truth. (Integrity)

 

[WeAAsles]

Being condescending and disparaging the intelligence of those that don't buy into your rhetoric is really not the way to have a conversation or a debate.

My guess is you avoid your own mirror then?

 

[NYer]

Well you stick with your opinions and predictions and I'll stick with mine. Just remember and don't spin. You state again absolutely this will not be done by the end of the year. And I believe it will be. And I also believe that being the last to come to terms will benefit us far more (long term) over had we been first to secure a deal.

I believe your problem has always been that you think short term small picture over long term big picture. You always come across as desperate. Desperate people are lousy Chess players.

Do you play Chess NYer?

 
There you go, changing the subject and making the conversation about personal attacks.
 
The great thing about how you go about with your contributions is that you actually help to the make points against yourself. Well done.

 

[WeAAsles]

There you go, changing the subject and making the conversation about personal attacks.
 
The great thing about how you go about with your contributions is that you actually help to the make points against yourself. Well done.

If you're calling what I wrote personal attacks you really should consider carrying around a tissue box with you.

And about your "subject" It's only a subject if both sides want to discuss it with all openness. I already informed you how we can continue on with that subject but you obviously prefer to ignore what I said.

But BTW if you really believe that the fact that other groups are signing deals is the only reason I think we'll get one as well, that would be a pretty stupid reason standing on its own. Now go back through the threads and find the other reasons I "think" this can be done before the end of the year.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim stay on point and stop trying to suck up to NYer. The readers know who has been fairly consistently accurate over those that haven't been already. Painting a picture over an original is low class and ruins a perfectly good work of art.
Wages are highly important in an individual's overall economic situation. Had we "locked" that in 8 months ago here's what ABSOLUTELY would have happened. We would have been at $26.54 per hour. Delta would not have propelled their ramp by another 14% and UAL would not have leapt over that. Plain and simply because it would have been uncompetitive over our wage rates.
Delta probably would have went 4% above us and still would have lost half the value on their PS. Munoz would have went a percentage or two above that, and Parker "may" have matched to try and keep labor peace (Maybe)
But had the Association locked in there is not even any guarantee that any of that would have occurred. Again the entire industry for Fleet wages would probably right now had capped out at $26 and change with a 2% per year raise over the life of the 5 year deal.
You're being incredibly naive if you think we would still be where we are right now. Extremely naive in fact.

Its all hypothetical. But based on parker's actions with the stews, i think he would have adjusted us if we assume your theory that we would have signed for $26.

New seniority came out. 4800 ft 2200 pt.

 

[WeAAsles]

Its all hypothetical. But based on parker's actions with the stews, i think he would have adjusted us if we assume your theory that we would have signed for $26.
New seniority came out. 4800 ft 2200 pt.

Absolutely all hypothetical Tim. I'm not arguing that at all. Again I just think had we locked ourselves in (when) the offer was 7%/ $26.54, the final outcome at UAL wouldn't have reached $29.87 for us to even think about whether or not Parker would have matched? You're talking a $3.33 wall to surmount for that leapfrog game the 3 CEO's have been playing.

Just talking wages though and I can do the base math. $30.17 against $26.54 over a probable 5 year deal still puts us WAY ahead even if we've lost a full year.

Yes right now in many areas you have a little more icing on your cake over what I have. But if we compare my full 21 years to 21 of your years, I'm sure I'm still way ahead economically. In the meantime enjoy the benefits you have over me. You've all gone through a lot in your careers and it's well earned and deserved.

 

[WeAAsles]

Its all hypothetical. But based on parker's actions with the stews, i think he would have adjusted us if we assume your theory that we would have signed for $26.
New seniority came out. 4800 ft 2200 pt.

BTW our Fleet numbers on the AA side currently stand today at 9862 clerks. So total between the two groups at AA we have 16,862 members today.

 

[Kev3188]

What's the FT/PT split at AA?

 

[wings396]

BTW our Fleet numbers on the AA side currently stand today at 9862 clerks. So total between the two groups at AA we have 16,862 members today.

That's what I came up with the last time that I checked as well.

 

[NYer]

What's the FT/PT split at AA?

 
About 68% to 32%

 

[WeAAsles]

What's the FT/PT split at AA?

Kev have you guys ever been able to determine roughly how many FT heads Delta supports against regular PT and the Ready Reserves? I'd have to guess Delta doesn't provide those numbers to you readily or easily?