"It's just not the right way to pay 100,000 employees that don't have that much impact on the daily

[eolesen]

Bob calls Cranky kooky, yet his posts here for the last ten years illustrate Brett's point over and over again...

 

[MetalMover]

Let's not forget the TWU knew what was best for us and gave away the profit sharing in return for a one time meager pay increase.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

As a labor activist myself, I couldn't agree with E more. Bob's post seem to be increasingly disconnected from reality.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bob Owens has had a better and more realistic sense than most of the people of AA and its labor situation for years.

it isn't surprising that some of the very people who want to stand with mgmt. and the APFA now want to act as if Bob has fallen off the deep end.

the APFA and Laura got involved in a deal that was way over their heads; they were outsmarted by Parker who is laughing all the way to the bank.

Bob Owens is smart enough to call APFA and profit sharing for what it is... a bait and switch that Parker managed to pull on AA FAs - all the while a bunch of mgmt. and union suckups together align to argue that profit sharing was bad.

this is one of those issues that will be on the "must track and follow up list" and I am certain that Bob and I will be right that AA employees were suckered into giving up way more than they could have ever gained in increased pay scales.

it is simply management anesthesia for the masses to argue that employees should be insulated from ill effects of the industry. that is pure, unadulterated hogwash.

Parker knows full well that the downside risks in the airline industry are far smaller than the upside risks at this point for the industry.

THE ONLY reason he doesn't want to offer profit sharing is because it saves him money. Don't kid yourself that there is any other reason and he could care less about doing what is best for employees.

 

[eolesen]

Ah, yes, the resident DL cheerleader who has been out of the industry for almost a decade I s now the expert on AA's labor situation....

Again, most people on the forums think profit sharing should be part of the package at AA. Trying to say there's a bunch of apologists here is even more removed from reality than anything Bob's said.

 

[AANOTOK]

Ah, yes, the resident DL cheerleader who has been out of the industry for almost a decade I s now the expert on AA's labor situation....

Again, most people on the forums think profit sharing should be part of the package at AA. Trying to say there's a bunch of apologists here is even more removed from reality than anything Bob's said.

+1000

 

[WorldTraveler]

Ah, yes, the resident DL cheerleader who has been out of the industry for almost a decade I s now the expert on AA's labor situation....

Again, most people on the forums think profit sharing should be part of the package at AA. Trying to say there's a bunch of apologists here is even more removed from reality than anything Bob's said.

would you make up your mind?

there are umpteen threads on here (and hundreds of posts) where you and others have argued that profit sharing doesn't matter and is a risky proposition.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Ah, yes, the resident DL cheerleader who has been out of the industry for almost a decade I s now the expert on AA's labor situation....

Again, most people on the forums think profit sharing should be part of the package at AA. Trying to say there's a bunch of apologists here is even more removed from reality than anything Bob's said.

there may be plenty of people who think that profit sharing should be part of the compensation package but very few have said they want it if it means not having the same level of pay of DL employees including their profit sharing in AA scale salaries.

that is not the way it works.

AA employees ARE NOT going to get the same level of pay of DL or WN employees without having a significant amount of it in profit sharing and AA employees are not going to get profit sharing ON TOP OF DL compensation levels that include profit sharing.

there are way too many AA people here who think the company should shovel money into their bank accounts whether those employees do anything positive for the company or not.

guess what? stuff like the Oct 2012 or whatever year it was operational meltdown would never happen if employees had to pay for it out of their own profit sharing.

AA employees don't have the mindset to make the company work like DL or WN employees.

And AA isn't willing to incentivize them to do so.

 

[Bob Owens]

guess what? stuff like the Oct 2012 or whatever year it was operational meltdown would never happen if employees had to pay for it out of their own profit sharing.

AA employees don't have the mindset to make the company work like DL or WN employees.

 

And why then did DL go BK years before AA? 

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

deleted

 

[WorldTraveler]

And why then did DL go BK years before AA?

because DL's business model was broken- heavily dependent on large gauge domestic low yield connecting traffic.

as far as the timing, DL decided it wasn't worth continuing to avoid BK when it was a reality that would happen in time.

DL managed to restructure faster than either AA or UA and move very quickly into its restructuring program which started before BK and ended up with the NW merger and restructuring of the network afterwards including closing MEM and CVG as hubs and expanding NYC and SEA. You can draw the line where you want, but DL's restructuring was by far the fastest and most decisive of the big 3 - really big 4 because WN has done many of the same things since their merger - and has taken the leadership position in revenue generation.

The whole reason why profit sharing matters a lot to the total compensation of DL employees and why it should for AA is because every carrier has to restructure - B6 is now starting on it and AS is being forced to do the same thing or they can't survive the way they did a few years ago.

Profit sharing for WN employees has been based on making the company successful both in the now and in all of the transitions that have to take place for any airline to continue to adapt and succeed.

cutting AA employees out of the incentive to make the company succeed now as well as thru all of the transitions that AA has to make in order to position itself for the longhaul will result in AA and US being right where they were for the past 10 plus years

 

[Bob Owens]

because DL's business model was broken- heavily dependent on large gauge domestic low yield connecting traffic.

as far as the timing, DL decided it wasn't worth continuing to avoid BK when it was a reality that would happen in time.

DL managed to restructure faster than either AA or UA and move very quickly into its restructuring program which started before BK and ended up with the NW merger and restructuring of the network afterwards including closing MEM and CVG as hubs and expanding NYC and SEA. You can draw the line where you want, but DL's restructuring was by far the fastest and most decisive of the big 3 - really big 4 because WN has done many of the same things since their merger - and has taken the leadership position in revenue generation.

The whole reason why profit sharing matters a lot to the total compensation of DL employees and why it should for AA is because every carrier has to restructure - B6 is now starting on it and AS is being forced to do the same thing or they can't survive the way they did a few years ago.

Profit sharing for WN employees has been based on making the company successful both in the now and in all of the transitions that have to take place for any airline to continue to adapt and succeed.

cutting AA employees out of the incentive to make the company succeed now as well as thru all of the transitions that AA has to make in order to position itself for the longhaul will result in AA and US being right where they were for the past 10 plus years

So the "business model" was broken and they took it out on their employees with concessions and freezing their pension? 
 
Profit sharing only works to motivate the employees if the pay is adequate in the first place, at least for mechanics. Look, we like being a mechanics but after 8.5 hours we'd like to do other things. If I'm being paid well and a little extra effort gets a plane out and I get some Profit Sharing as a result a year later then thats great, but if I'm not being paid right and I need more money why bother? I didn't break it, it broke, now it has to be fixed the way they say they want it fixed and the longer that takes the more money I make. Why go above and beyond and lose the opportunity when management could piss away my contribution? Lets say I save a trip by going above and beyond for below and behind, what would that add to my profit sharing if we had it? 50 cents? Maybe a dollar?  But if the thing stays and I work four over I pocket $200. Sure the airline loses around $100k in revenue but just as they have made it clear that my mortgage, putting food on my family's table and paying medical bills etc  isn't their problem neither is the fact that the airplane broke and the trip was cancelled really my problem. Maybe they shouldnt overhaul them in China or South America and they wouldn't break as much. My problem is confined to making sure that any work I do is In Accordance With FAA , manufacturer and company procedures and taking care of my family, because AA (or Delta) sure as hell won't. 
 
 
I understand your devotion to Profit sharing, because in reality its a form of variable pay. It's a lot less messy to say, "Hey we have no profits this year because of the way we screwed things up so you get less money this year" than to say lets renegotiate the contract or file BK. 
 
Profit sharing is an incentive to go above and beyond when used in conjunction with a fair base wage. Its not a substitute for a fair wage.  I strongly suspect that Delta FAs in real terms are still earning much less than they were 15 years ago and their Profit sharing doesnt even come close to bringing them back there.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and even on a scale basis, DL employees are at or above the average for US airline employees. and AA/US pay rates are precisely a big "anchor" on those averages. Profit sharing IS the icing that pushes DL employee total compensation considerably above average

and again you are hung up on the notion that legacy airlines might not have figured out how to be profitable on a sustained basis but yet WN has.

the simple reason why DL employees are pulling donw the profit sharing they are is because DL DID restructure its business from the ground up and DL has demonstrated how to make the strategic changes necessary to adapt to a very volatile business climate.

I suspect that a big reason why AA employees differ from their ocunterparts at DL, UA, and WN in wanting profit sharing is because they aren't really convinced that AA has turned its business model around. GIven that AA is the last carrier to emerge from BK and merge, maybe they are right.

and Parker and co. is happy to play on that doubt to keep them underpaid for as long as possible.

 

[eolesen]

would you make up your mind?

there are umpteen threads on here (and hundreds of posts) where you and others have argued that profit sharing doesn't matter and is a risky proposition.

I've been quite consistent in my opinion that base pay in conjunction with a variable compensation component is the best compensation arrangement possible.

There may be a few unionists and executives who disagree with that for the rank and file, but they're in the minority opinion-wise.

 

[MetalMover]

I've been quite consistent in my opinion that base pay in conjunction with a variable compensation component is the best compensation arrangement possible.

There may be a few unionists and executives who disagree with that for the rank and file, but they're in the minority opinion-wise.

The problem with this methodology is that employees pay the price when MISmanagement takes over. Employees can give 110% a day but when decisions are made at the top that affect the airlines performance, profits and reputation,
those making the decisions usually are affected less by profit sharing because of their HIGHER salary. Giving employees stingy profit sharing is not going to make anyone jump through hoops.