Is Phoenix becoming the new PIT?

[CLTBWIDAYSYR]

This is just a guess, but I assume the decrease in flying is directly attributed to the "synergies" realized by merging. Fewer flights from East hubs to West cities and vice versa, as connections via hubs make up for former transcon non-stops. Example: US used to have six daily nonstops to LAX from CLT, now there are four (connex via PHX and LAS now) RDU used to have non-stops to PHX and LAS, now all are connected through CLT. As DoUgIe said, we will use connections at our fabulous hubs to move customers rather than send them non-stops, giving them "more choices".

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

SAC inot an airport US Airways flies to. Try SMF.

I stand corrected.

The post from CLTBWIDAYSYR shows why a western hub is needed.

 

[sfb]

I have mentioned this on other threads. Is Phoenix becoming the "new" PIT????????? Our flying is dissapearing, at least 7% in the last two years. And I don't buy that we are in a low season anymore. We are hiring pilots and fa's so they can sit around? Stagnant growth, and eventually further decreases in flying. We blamed Mesa before the merger, but now seems mgmt has something up there dirty sleeves, and maybe the demise of the Sandcastle???? Hmmm...? No explanation, or answer of why. I am sick of the Philly excuse too. What is really going on?!! Give all the flying to Southwest, is that is your intended plan?!!! :down: :down:

The problem in PHX is that on competitive routes, US Airways is not the carrier of choice and in some cases is the carrier of last resort. Take Phoenix-Chicago, where US only manages just a bit over half of Southwest's market share in spite of a lower average fare. Southwest gets 73% of PHX-OAK even though their average fare is about 10% higher than US. In the PHX markets where US does get a revenue premium over WN, it's often not enough to offset the higher CASM of the West operation -- 10.33 cents vs. Southwest's 9.03 cents in the most recent quarter.

If management wants to grow the West (i.e. LAS & PHX) operation, they need to figure out a way to do it profitably. The big challenge, of course, is that two of WN's three largest stations are at LAS and PHX -- so how do you grow against a competitor with lower costs and a product that is arguably delivered better? You can grow to markets they don't and won't serve, but there are only so many of those that have enough traffic to be worth adding (i.e. Hawaii, DCA, Canada, Alaska, Mexico). US management hasn't figured out the value proposition like Continental has -- convincing people to pay somewhat more for a better product.

 

[UPNAWAY]

A big difference is PHX is growing PIT is not. Not to mention Company's continue to open branches out here or move HQ's here. I doubt much of that is happening in PIT.

 

[USstew23]

What division is making money EAST or WEST? Maybe there lays your answer

Oh Jesus, here we go with that again. There is no more "West" except in the eyes of the unions.

 

[zethya]

....Now me being one of those pesky freeloading frequent flyers who so clearly drag down profits at US Airways whilst other airlines openly court our business, I have to ask WHY can CO earn a profit out of CLE and US can't or won't in PIT?.....

Maybe it's because US feels they already have a PHL Reliever - it's called CLT. PHL-CLT is roughly the same distance as EWR-CLE. Consequently why invest significant resources in a 3rd Hub. which is less than or close to 300nm from CLT/PHL? Now if someone can point to an example that CLT is near maxed out, that might change the logic. Further, US made the decision just prior to the last BK to choose CLT rather than PIT as a major hub going forward, not because of O&D (they both have very similar local traffic numbers - about 8M annually), but among other reasons, because CLT was geographically well situated to funnel West traffic to both the N and S, whereas PIT was not (as well situated). An effective PHL Reliever would have to support the heavy NE corridor business traffic, PHL's O&D, and the current and future international services out of PHL. In order for the latter to work, the Reliever would likely have to independently support some international services on it's own and at the same time not erode PHL flights - especially those which would under perform without PHL international O&D. CO and CLE can obviously do that with a few flights (LGW-LHR/CDG (future)) with little/no EWR international O&D. Although I emotionally support PIT as a PHL reliever, I have doubts it could work economically, without affecting overall profitability.

As a side note, US may have competition on the PHL-FCO route next spring as AZ is considering starting service with a 767-300ER. Although I personally wouldn't consider them much competition service wise, they have the ethnic loyalty advantage.

 

[Travelpro72]

Rest assured that if Alitalia comes to Philadelphia MOST Italians will fly the flag carrier regardless of price. Besides, though Alitalia is not know for their award winning service it CAN'T be any worse than Usassways. While people may say this isn't necessarily true we'll just see how much business it will take away from Usassways. You know, being a big powerhouse and all. It's what usassways does best. HIDE. Wait....you'll hear that FCO can't be continued due to an unprofitable market after a year of competition. Let's see all we'd need would be Aer Lingus to DUB and were done. Oh wait we'd sustain service with our award winning service aboard our 757's against their A330 200 or 300's. Oh man......can we say crackup :blink: OK I'm repeating myself.....

 

[Travelpro72]

Rest assured that if Alitalia comes to Philadelphia MOST Italians will fly the flag carrier regardless of price. Besides, though Alitalia is not know for their award winning service it CAN'T be any worse than Usassways. While people may say this isn't necessarily true we'll just see how much business it will take away from Usassways. You know, being a big powerhouse and all. It's what usassways does best. HIDE. Wait....you'll hear that FCO can't be continued due to an unprofitable market after a year of competition. Let's see all we'd need would be Aer Lingus to DUB and were done. Oh wait we'd sustain service with our award winning service aboard our 757's against their A330 200 or 300's. Oh man......can we say crackup :blink:

 

[WCT]

A big difference is PHX is growing PIT is not. Not to mention Company's continue to open branches out here or move HQ's here. I doubt much of that is happening in PIT.

Sorry to blow your bubble, but PHX is not growing! It is decreasing slowly. And I know most of the reason is balancing the airline in whole. It would be interesting to find out how much money is made in the Mexico, Canada, Alaska, and Hawaii markets?? Maybe that is the only thing doing well, who knows?? No one has answers around here. Who cares about HQ's, most of mgmt lives here, and our holy governor almost had a hernia losing the precious Homebase.
The daily flights are around 220 out of PHX. Does anyone have an more accurate total?? Let's hope they build PHX and LAS in the future, it only means better job security and increased transfers out West, to relieve the East bases.

 

[WCT]

I don't know a whole lot about PHX as a US hub but the metro area is growing in general. In the words of Dougweiser PHX is only "Marginally Profitable" for US.

As for PIT declining slowly I've not seen numbers to support that when compared to CLE. While true that the US population has shown tendencies to move south and west in general I'm not certain that PIT has seen a greater decline then other NE city and yet the most profit comes from another NE "Declining" city 268 nm east of PIT. Conversely LAS as a city is/was going gangbusters with economic growth. How profitable is the LAS hub?

LAS has been the only city with substantial changes in flights. Most of the late nite flights went to day flights. Added some to DCA, CMH, ORD. I think we do well on the LAS market.
To be the big airline we want to be, we can't afford not to concentrate on the West market. Continue to grow, remain profitable. Unless we want to retreat to the old US Air, and only be of East dominance. I don't think the Sandcastle, as bad as it is, will let the West go no where. There is an untapped market to European, and Central American destinations in PHX and LAS. At least in PHX we have the B International concourse that could handle a good operation if seem fit.. I hope so!

 

[avion]

you know if you work for US give US some slack.. granted we dont have the great inflight service we used to be rewarded for in the news media like the award winning ATTACHE magazine and our Envoy class.. this was under Wolf and Gangwal they were into that thing. we need to hire and train inflight with multi language skills and be a bit more efficient international. bottom line if we were not efficient enough in terms of providing service to the international cities we would be out, our international applications are based on service not INFLIGHT but operational, if we dont meet that country s requirements we are out and we need to re apply. let AZ fly out of PHL man I have friends at AZ sales and they even admit they suck. Ethnics will always fly the country airline.. nothing new. no matter what anyone says US is and will be the dominant international carrier in PHL. also being part of the Star Alliance helps big time . just wished we had a computer system that is internationally compatible... but heard that all Star Alliance carriers will become Amadeus.. lets hope

 

[zethya]

...I'm not certain that PIT has seen a greater decline then other NE city and yet the most profit comes from another NE "Declining" city 268 nm east of PIT. Conversely LAS as a city is/was going gangbusters with economic growth. How profitable is the LAS hub?

It's not "rocket science". PIT has a catchment area population (roughly MSA equivalent) of 2.3M (7-2006) and PHL 5.8M (7-2006). PIT has approximately 7M/0.4M Domestic/International O&D (the usual source for higher Yields) and PHL has 18M/4.2M. Philadelphia has a thriving business and central city core nearing 100K in population - which is a gain of 12% from 1990 - 2006, although as in most NE cities the city is general has lost population. PIT on the other hand has a decimated central city core and a continuing outflow of business. Comparing PIT and PHL is like comparing NYC with PHL - there is no comparison. One of the data points which provides an estimate of premium passengers from an area is commercial growth, including construction. PIT has little. PHL has lots. Pittsburgh is a "nice" place as so many here will tout, but in the end it doesn't appear able to support but very few of it's entrepreneurial aspirations, such as international flying and a major airline hub. By the way I was born and spent the first 17 years of my life in Pittsburgh and now visit twice/year, so I feel qualified!

 

[WCT]

you know if you work for US give US some slack.. granted we dont have the great inflight service we used to be rewarded for in the news media like the award winning ATTACHE magazine and our Envoy class.. this was under Wolf and Gangwal they were into that thing. we need to hire and train inflight with multi language skills and be a bit more efficient international. bottom line if we were not efficient enough in terms of providing service to the international cities we would be out, our international applications are based on service not INFLIGHT but operational, if we dont meet that country s requirements we are out and we need to re apply. let AZ fly out of PHL man I have friends at AZ sales and they even admit they suck. Ethnics will always fly the country airline.. nothing new. no matter what anyone says US is and will be the dominant international carrier in PHL. also being part of the Star Alliance helps big time . just wished we had a computer system that is internationally compatible... but heard that all Star Alliance carriers will become Amadeus.. lets hope

Nobody is argueing with you. Philly is a great market for US. Obviously. My whole point of this thread is the future of PHOENIX???!!! We want the same prosperity here too, and make the airline as global as possible. Without a big West hub, forget it! More security for the East employees too. The only dominate competition in PHX is WN, so I am sure US will remain a big, or bigger airline in the future!! Only one can hope!!

 

[WCT]

Good Info. Thanks

However the point I was trying to make was let's compare EWR to PHL and CLE to PIT. CO has successful hubs in both EWR & CLE yet US has abandoned PIT. So I'm wondering why CO can make CLE work being roughly the same distance from EWR as PIT is from PHL and US can't make it work.

Piney, will you please enlight us about the PHX hub. We know PIT is done. :unsure:

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Good Info. Thanks

However the point I was trying to make was let's compare EWR to PHL and CLE to PIT. CO has successful hubs in both EWR & CLE yet US has abandoned PIT. So I'm wondering why CO can make CLE work being roughly the same distance from EWR as PIT is from PHL and US can't make it work.

hmmmmm CO makes more money than LCC. CO needs a back-up to EWR more than LCC needs a back up to PHL, becaue LCC already has DCA and CLT, and if you can relieve PHL of some of the north-south traffic, PHL should (theoretically) work much better than EWR. So, even if you just assume that PIT and CLE could operate with similar success and economics, you'd still have the variable that LCC already has way more sunk costs in moving east coast flyers short distances with the resulting higher CASM, while CO has less costs and much longer stage lengths, and larger markets.

So, it may be true that PIT can 'CLE' for PHL. But LCC is already paying for DCA and CLT to 'CLE' for PHL. Maybe if the economics of westbound travel from upstate NY, NE and the mid-Atlantic were to be better, then PIT would make more sense.

So, that brings you back to whether or not any executive would simply accept the dysfunction of the working culture at PHL and invest more sunk costs to work around something that really should just work. I'm not an executive and I really don't care, but I'd probably have trouble feeling good about my company to have to admit that I'd need to sustain a third or FOURTH hub operation to enable the continuing dysfunction of PHL. To me the answer may be to shutter PHL and PIT and combine with CO or AMR or DL or UAL. Or fix PHL and combine with NW. But get rid of the US brand.