casual rat
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Bob, a Judge is not God, but there is this thing called a restraining order that he/she may impose. Hey, I hear AA is going bankrupt too!
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ual747mech
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[blockquote]
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On 1/15/2003 8:15:31 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Is he God?
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[/blockquote]
Yes Bob, The Judge is God Were stuck with the 14% paycut and there is nothing we can do about it.
It reminds me of my Drill Instructor in the Marine Corp. He told us recruits that he was our mother, father and also "he was God". He was right, we did everything he told us to do [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
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On 1/15/2003 8:15:31 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Is he God?
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[/blockquote]
Yes Bob, The Judge is God Were stuck with the 14% paycut and there is nothing we can do about it.
It reminds me of my Drill Instructor in the Marine Corp. He told us recruits that he was our mother, father and also "he was God". He was right, we did everything he told us to do [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
ual747mech
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[blockquote]
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On 1/15/2003 10:16:11 AM casual rat wrote:
Bob, a Judge is not God, but there is this thing called a restraining order that he/she may impose. Hey, I hear AA is going bankrupt too!
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[/blockquote]
And so is Continental. Everybody is going bankrupt, even me!
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On 1/15/2003 10:16:11 AM casual rat wrote:
Bob, a Judge is not God, but there is this thing called a restraining order that he/she may impose. Hey, I hear AA is going bankrupt too!
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[/blockquote]
And so is Continental. Everybody is going bankrupt, even me!
ual747mech
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[blockquote]
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On 1/15/2003 9:32:16 AM ualdriver wrote:
Keep in mind that as you read Bob Owen's posts that he is an American Airlines employee and stands to gain from a United Airlines that would more than likely have to liquidate should a strike or work action by any employee group take place.
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[/blockquote]
Yup I think that's what he wants to happen. For us to liquidate that is. If he is so worried about his wage getting drag down, he should start with his own fellow mechanics at American. Their Shop Overhaul Mechanic are only topping out at 23.86/hr or somewhere in that ballpark. I'm gonna cook up a scenario(he does it! so why can't I
![9.gif']](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%29+and+it+goes+something+like+this%3A+United+closes+or+reduce+some+more+line+stations+after+the+Unions+agrees+to+it+%28remember+now%21+United+needs+to+get+lean+because+they+need+get+rid+of+the+unprofitable+routes%29+and+the+personnel+will+either+get+laid+off+or+bump+to+other+places+if+they+want+to.++American+will+follow+suit+and+reduce+Bob%27s+line+station+and+he+is+forced+to+go+to+Tulsa+to+become+a+Shop+Overhaul+Mechanic.++Ouch..+%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F9.gif%27%5D++Don%27t+worry+Bob%2C+Oklahoma+is+%22OK%22.++The+cost+of+living+is+cheaper+there+than+in+%22New+York+City%21%21%21%22++%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F9.gif%27%5D++Now+I+hope+that+doesn%27t+happen+for+Bob%27s+sake.++I+don%27t+even+know+if+their+mechanics+can+bump+into+the+Shop+Overhaul+Mechanic+Position.++I+don%27t+have+any+reference+to+go+by%2C+I+just+made+that+up+just+like+he+makes+things+up+without+backing+it+up.++%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F9.gif%27%5D&hash=e01dec53b97cc8e8a918c3376cae23ba)
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On 1/15/2003 9:32:16 AM ualdriver wrote:
Keep in mind that as you read Bob Owen's posts that he is an American Airlines employee and stands to gain from a United Airlines that would more than likely have to liquidate should a strike or work action by any employee group take place.
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[/blockquote]
Yup I think that's what he wants to happen. For us to liquidate that is. If he is so worried about his wage getting drag down, he should start with his own fellow mechanics at American. Their Shop Overhaul Mechanic are only topping out at 23.86/hr or somewhere in that ballpark. I'm gonna cook up a scenario(he does it! so why can't I
UnitedChicago
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Y'all should read what they're talking about on the AA board. The tone and positions are eerily similar to what was talked about here 3 months ago.
[blockquote]
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On 1/15/2003 10:37:55 AM ual747mech wrote:
[Yup I think that's what he wants to happen. For us to liquidate that is. If he is so worried about his wage getting drag down, he should start with his own fellow mechanics at American. Their Shop Overhaul Mechanic are only topping out at 23.86/hr or somewhere in that ballpark. I'm gonna cook up a scenario(he does it! so why can't I ) and it goes something like this: United closes or reduce some more line stations after the Unions agrees to it (remember now! United needs to get lean because they need get rid of the unprofitable routes) and the personnel will either get laid off or bump to other places if they want to. American will follow suit and reduce Bob's line station and he is forced to go to Tulsa to become a Shop Overhaul Mechanic. Ouch.. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif'] Don't worry Bob, Oklahoma is "OK". The cost of living is cheaper there than in "New York City!!!" [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif'] Now I hope that doesn't happen for Bob's sake. I don't even know if their mechanics can bump into the Shop Overhaul Mechanic Position. I don't have any reference to go by, I just made that up just like he makes things up without backing it up. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
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[/blockquote]
Well we have gone down this route before but I'll say it again, I would much rather that UAL stay in business and continue or should I say resume paying their mechanics a fair wage. The thought of one less potential employer is not appealing to me.
Bumped to Tulsa? Well in this industry you can never say never but it is highly unlikely. If things got that bad there would likely be nowhere to bump. Of the 400 guys in JFK I have over 300 beat, plus another 100 at LGA.If the NY operation were cut down that much I would not have much hope for the company since this is one of their most profitable stations.
So the Judge is God. Did he hit you with a restraining order or has the IAM simply agreed to the paycut? The RLA allows you to strike once the status quo in pay has been altered. Where exactly does it say you cant strike? Even if the Judge does issue a Restraining order that can still be challenged, under what basis is he issueing it and does it take precidence over other laws and if so, for how long? He cant permanently disregard the Law. Since when does the solvency of a private corporation take precidence over your right to withhold your labor? Is this what the founding fathers had in mind when they founded this country? I'll admit that this is probably not the best time to strike but recognizing it as an option could help keep the company and the judge at bay. I still say that the worst possible thing you can do is agree to a long term concessionary contract just like in 94.
There is nothing that you can do about it? You lack imagination my friend. If those who came before us surrendered thier fates to Judges and companies we would have never had Unions, paid vacations, health benifits, sick time, 8 hour work days, pensions, just cause, overtime, holiday pay, etc, etc.
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On 1/15/2003 10:37:55 AM ual747mech wrote:
[Yup I think that's what he wants to happen. For us to liquidate that is. If he is so worried about his wage getting drag down, he should start with his own fellow mechanics at American. Their Shop Overhaul Mechanic are only topping out at 23.86/hr or somewhere in that ballpark. I'm gonna cook up a scenario(he does it! so why can't I ) and it goes something like this: United closes or reduce some more line stations after the Unions agrees to it (remember now! United needs to get lean because they need get rid of the unprofitable routes) and the personnel will either get laid off or bump to other places if they want to. American will follow suit and reduce Bob's line station and he is forced to go to Tulsa to become a Shop Overhaul Mechanic. Ouch.. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif'] Don't worry Bob, Oklahoma is "OK". The cost of living is cheaper there than in "New York City!!!" [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif'] Now I hope that doesn't happen for Bob's sake. I don't even know if their mechanics can bump into the Shop Overhaul Mechanic Position. I don't have any reference to go by, I just made that up just like he makes things up without backing it up. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']
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[/blockquote]
Well we have gone down this route before but I'll say it again, I would much rather that UAL stay in business and continue or should I say resume paying their mechanics a fair wage. The thought of one less potential employer is not appealing to me.
Bumped to Tulsa? Well in this industry you can never say never but it is highly unlikely. If things got that bad there would likely be nowhere to bump. Of the 400 guys in JFK I have over 300 beat, plus another 100 at LGA.If the NY operation were cut down that much I would not have much hope for the company since this is one of their most profitable stations.
So the Judge is God. Did he hit you with a restraining order or has the IAM simply agreed to the paycut? The RLA allows you to strike once the status quo in pay has been altered. Where exactly does it say you cant strike? Even if the Judge does issue a Restraining order that can still be challenged, under what basis is he issueing it and does it take precidence over other laws and if so, for how long? He cant permanently disregard the Law. Since when does the solvency of a private corporation take precidence over your right to withhold your labor? Is this what the founding fathers had in mind when they founded this country? I'll admit that this is probably not the best time to strike but recognizing it as an option could help keep the company and the judge at bay. I still say that the worst possible thing you can do is agree to a long term concessionary contract just like in 94.
There is nothing that you can do about it? You lack imagination my friend. If those who came before us surrendered thier fates to Judges and companies we would have never had Unions, paid vacations, health benifits, sick time, 8 hour work days, pensions, just cause, overtime, holiday pay, etc, etc.
ual747mech
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[blockquote]
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On 1/15/2003 8:15:31 AM Bob Owens wrote:
The union has agreed to the cuts by their inaction. I dont believe that the Union has to bring it back for a vote. The Contract belongs to the Union, not the workers. The Judge has already abrogated your agreement. The Union has not challenged it under the RLA. What is stopping the Union from striking? Under what authority can the Judge prevent you from Striking? Is he God? A long term concessionary contract is the worst thing that you could possibly agree to. Didnt you learn anything from 94?
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[/blockquote]
Hey Bob! Are you guys going to challenge the pay freeze American is implementing? Are you guys going to strike? "I doubt it". You suggest things that will actually make things worst. The unions here says that there's nothing we can do to stop concession. All we can do is minimize the impact of bankruptcy on our contracts thru negotiations with the company. Management have as much to lose as the Unions. Nobody wants another Eastern. The fact is you don't know what you are talking about. Under what section of the RLA did you say to back up what you are saying? Come on we're all waiting here..
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On 1/15/2003 8:15:31 AM Bob Owens wrote:
The union has agreed to the cuts by their inaction. I dont believe that the Union has to bring it back for a vote. The Contract belongs to the Union, not the workers. The Judge has already abrogated your agreement. The Union has not challenged it under the RLA. What is stopping the Union from striking? Under what authority can the Judge prevent you from Striking? Is he God? A long term concessionary contract is the worst thing that you could possibly agree to. Didnt you learn anything from 94?
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[/blockquote]
Hey Bob! Are you guys going to challenge the pay freeze American is implementing? Are you guys going to strike? "I doubt it". You suggest things that will actually make things worst. The unions here says that there's nothing we can do to stop concession. All we can do is minimize the impact of bankruptcy on our contracts thru negotiations with the company. Management have as much to lose as the Unions. Nobody wants another Eastern. The fact is you don't know what you are talking about. Under what section of the RLA did you say to back up what you are saying? Come on we're all waiting here..
Bob, sorry, but you need to get a grasp on reality here. Yes we can strike. I don't dispute that. When we do, the DIP financiers will call in their markers and it's buh bye UAL. Everyone with half a brain at this company realizes that. Assuring you a "fair" wage at AA, and for all mech's is indeed a noble cause, and in good times, I could see your point. However, on the brink of ch 7 is not the time to play "I dare ya" cuz the odds are clearly not stacked in our favor. That is the bottom line. Deal with it. I really don't understand your objective here. The reality is, and that you seem oblivious to, is that if any labor group at UA strikes we will "perish". The obvious answer to many here is that you work for AA, who would benefit from UA's death, and, while I can see why people would assume that, they to, are missing the point. If UA dies due to labor strife, AA and all OAL's will institute a crackdown on wages and benefits so quick it will make your head spin. I can hear CAArty now "As evidence by UAL's liquidation, it has become obvious we must make great sacrifices, lest we follow in their footsteps." What union, one month from a UAL ch 7, would strike a company? Our demise would beat down your wages far faster then our continued operation.
UnitedChicago
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Obviously you all are way too smart and see Bob Lott's true motives and identify his irrational opinions.
Thank goodness for that.
P.S. Go peak at the AA board...the CH11 talk and wage givebacks debates is in high gear.
Thank goodness for that.
P.S. Go peak at the AA board...the CH11 talk and wage givebacks debates is in high gear.
casual rat
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Bob,Bob,Bob....If a Bankruptcy Judge were to institute wage cuts and work rule changes upon a Union to aid a company during the process, and the Union made noises that striking the company were to be the reaction, don't you think it would be prudent on the part of the Judge to institute a restraining order preventing such action to what the Judge deemed? I think so.
To put it into terms that you might understand (hypothetically of course--no malevolence intended)....If I called you a stupid idiot and hit you over the head with a crescent wrench, I would expect your reaction would be to call me something and hit me back, however; if I knock your ass out cold, then you are restrained from coming back at me. Now do you get it?
I hope AA doesn't go bankrupt, the job market isn't what it used to be. Auto mechanics make $12-$14/hr to start (depending on what the Market bears)....but they do get discounts on cars they can't buy! Maybe if you go back to the AA site and stay there, you can prevent your company from bankruptcy--better hurry!
To put it into terms that you might understand (hypothetically of course--no malevolence intended)....If I called you a stupid idiot and hit you over the head with a crescent wrench, I would expect your reaction would be to call me something and hit me back, however; if I knock your ass out cold, then you are restrained from coming back at me. Now do you get it?
I hope AA doesn't go bankrupt, the job market isn't what it used to be. Auto mechanics make $12-$14/hr to start (depending on what the Market bears)....but they do get discounts on cars they can't buy! Maybe if you go back to the AA site and stay there, you can prevent your company from bankruptcy--better hurry!
ual747mech,
UAL does not want to negotiate. They will get their wish list. You sound like a broken record. I will vote no on anything put in front of me. Look at USAir. They are the blueprint for this BK. UA can't even come up with their own concessions. I truly believe that UA is going to go CH 7. Without a real change of upper management the company can only go that way. I for one do not want to lie down and let them take us back 15+ years. I go in for my 6 days and do what I'm told to do. But I will not cut my own throat. People say we should give Tilton a chance. He is doing nothing. The Judge and the DIP are running the show. Tilton is a puppet. Anyone could be CEO in this situation. We needed an airline person to run the company. Not an oilman.
Once again. UAL will not negotiate. They will just take the rest of their wish list to the Judge and get it!! I hope I'm wrong.
OK now everyone can slam me and tell me to quit. I'm going to stay and fight.
UAL does not want to negotiate. They will get their wish list. You sound like a broken record. I will vote no on anything put in front of me. Look at USAir. They are the blueprint for this BK. UA can't even come up with their own concessions. I truly believe that UA is going to go CH 7. Without a real change of upper management the company can only go that way. I for one do not want to lie down and let them take us back 15+ years. I go in for my 6 days and do what I'm told to do. But I will not cut my own throat. People say we should give Tilton a chance. He is doing nothing. The Judge and the DIP are running the show. Tilton is a puppet. Anyone could be CEO in this situation. We needed an airline person to run the company. Not an oilman.
Once again. UAL will not negotiate. They will just take the rest of their wish list to the Judge and get it!! I hope I'm wrong.
OK now everyone can slam me and tell me to quit. I'm going to stay and fight.
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
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Nobody deserves to make less than a fair wage.
But fair is typically defined by the marketplace when it comes to pay, and not just by the people actually earning it.
And it has worked to labor's advantage for years. Wages at every airline have benefitted to some degree when someone at another airline negotiated increases in their contract. Maybe not being matched dollar for dollar, but they have increased.
Just two years ago, I seem to recall a lot of discussion from various union members at different carriers all saying "give us what XXX got" when they were in negotiations
The street of fairness runs in both directions, and like it or not, if the 20% of a workgroup at airlines in the US (my guess of how much UAL and US account for) start making a lot less, that is going to ripple into the remaining 80%.
Now, if those 20% are put out on the street, average wages remain the same, because a lot fewer people are factored into the average...
But fair is typically defined by the marketplace when it comes to pay, and not just by the people actually earning it.
And it has worked to labor's advantage for years. Wages at every airline have benefitted to some degree when someone at another airline negotiated increases in their contract. Maybe not being matched dollar for dollar, but they have increased.
Just two years ago, I seem to recall a lot of discussion from various union members at different carriers all saying "give us what XXX got" when they were in negotiations
The street of fairness runs in both directions, and like it or not, if the 20% of a workgroup at airlines in the US (my guess of how much UAL and US account for) start making a lot less, that is going to ripple into the remaining 80%.
Now, if those 20% are put out on the street, average wages remain the same, because a lot fewer people are factored into the average...
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[blockquote]
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On 1/16/2003 2:05:01 PM gatemech wrote:
ual747mech,
UAL does not want to negotiate. Look at USAir. They are the blueprint for this BK. UA can't even come up with their own concessions. I truly believe that UA is going to go CH 7. Without a real change of upper management the company can only go that way.
Once again. UAL will not negotiate. They will just take the rest of their wish list to the Judge and get it!! I hope I'm wrong.
OK now everyone can slam me and tell me to quit. I'm going to stay and fight.
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[/blockquote]
I have to agree with you on alot of what you are saying. I have thought about it alot. In order to get fair treatment from UAL and the judge we have to let them know that we are willing to strike the company. It is all we have left and it would be a desperate move but I agree it may end up being neseccary. From what I can see United has no plan at all. Just lay people off until the numbers add up right. This company is still extremely top heavy and management is protecting their turf instead of doing what is right for UAL. It is time that they show us something. Anything to let us know they are at least trying to fix our problems. Instead they are handing out bonuses to the same group of incompetents that put us in this position in the first place. Sometimes I wonder if chapter 7 isn't what they are trying for. One thing is for sure I will not vote to take big cuts while they are getting bonuses. I believe that when we vote on the next round of concessions we should take a strike vote at the same time. Let them know that if we are not treated fairly we will withold our labor which is the only thing we will have left.
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On 1/16/2003 2:05:01 PM gatemech wrote:
ual747mech,
UAL does not want to negotiate. Look at USAir. They are the blueprint for this BK. UA can't even come up with their own concessions. I truly believe that UA is going to go CH 7. Without a real change of upper management the company can only go that way.
Once again. UAL will not negotiate. They will just take the rest of their wish list to the Judge and get it!! I hope I'm wrong.
OK now everyone can slam me and tell me to quit. I'm going to stay and fight.
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[/blockquote]
I have to agree with you on alot of what you are saying. I have thought about it alot. In order to get fair treatment from UAL and the judge we have to let them know that we are willing to strike the company. It is all we have left and it would be a desperate move but I agree it may end up being neseccary. From what I can see United has no plan at all. Just lay people off until the numbers add up right. This company is still extremely top heavy and management is protecting their turf instead of doing what is right for UAL. It is time that they show us something. Anything to let us know they are at least trying to fix our problems. Instead they are handing out bonuses to the same group of incompetents that put us in this position in the first place. Sometimes I wonder if chapter 7 isn't what they are trying for. One thing is for sure I will not vote to take big cuts while they are getting bonuses. I believe that when we vote on the next round of concessions we should take a strike vote at the same time. Let them know that if we are not treated fairly we will withold our labor which is the only thing we will have left.
ual747mech
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[blockquote]
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On 1/16/2003 2:05:01 PM gatemech wrote:
ual747mech,
UAL does not want to negotiate. They will get their wish list. You sound like a broken record. I will vote no on anything put in front of me. Look at USAir. They are the blueprint for this BK. UA can't even come up with their own concessions. I truly believe that UA is going to go CH 7. Without a real change of upper management the company can only go that way. I for one do not want to lie down and let them take us back 15+ years. I go in for my 6 days and do what I'm told to do. But I will not cut my own throat. People say we should give Tilton a chance. He is doing nothing. The Judge and the DIP are running the show. Tilton is a puppet. Anyone could be CEO in this situation. We needed an airline person to run the company. Not an oilman.
Once again. UAL will not negotiate. They will just take the rest of their wish list to the Judge and get it!! I hope I'm wrong.
OK now everyone can slam me and tell me to quit. I'm going to stay and fight.
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[/blockquote]
If what you say is true that Ual does not want to negotiate then its over for the company because it will be another Eastern all over again. I think you are wrong though. Look at what the company's proposal back when Creighton was still here. Did the company get everything they wanted?... "No." In fact they got a lot less than what they were asking. You said it's different this time because they can just take it to the judge if we don't bow to all their demands. That remain to be seen but I've seen cases where the Judge sided with the Union. So there are risk either way. You said we need an airline person to run the company and not an oilman. Was Greenwald an airline executive before he came to United?
Look vote however you want to, that is your right and nobody can take that away from you, but don't vote "no" just because what were voting on was negotiated by the IAM. I don't like the way they handle things either. Like not consulting with us whether we wanted the partial retro the company was offering back in Dec 2000.
I would rather take a negotiated changes to our contract rather than taking it to the Judge because of the risk of our contract getting voided but the company has to be fair if they don't want another Eastern.
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On 1/16/2003 2:05:01 PM gatemech wrote:
ual747mech,
UAL does not want to negotiate. They will get their wish list. You sound like a broken record. I will vote no on anything put in front of me. Look at USAir. They are the blueprint for this BK. UA can't even come up with their own concessions. I truly believe that UA is going to go CH 7. Without a real change of upper management the company can only go that way. I for one do not want to lie down and let them take us back 15+ years. I go in for my 6 days and do what I'm told to do. But I will not cut my own throat. People say we should give Tilton a chance. He is doing nothing. The Judge and the DIP are running the show. Tilton is a puppet. Anyone could be CEO in this situation. We needed an airline person to run the company. Not an oilman.
Once again. UAL will not negotiate. They will just take the rest of their wish list to the Judge and get it!! I hope I'm wrong.
OK now everyone can slam me and tell me to quit. I'm going to stay and fight.
----------------
[/blockquote]
If what you say is true that Ual does not want to negotiate then its over for the company because it will be another Eastern all over again. I think you are wrong though. Look at what the company's proposal back when Creighton was still here. Did the company get everything they wanted?... "No." In fact they got a lot less than what they were asking. You said it's different this time because they can just take it to the judge if we don't bow to all their demands. That remain to be seen but I've seen cases where the Judge sided with the Union. So there are risk either way. You said we need an airline person to run the company and not an oilman. Was Greenwald an airline executive before he came to United?
Look vote however you want to, that is your right and nobody can take that away from you, but don't vote "no" just because what were voting on was negotiated by the IAM. I don't like the way they handle things either. Like not consulting with us whether we wanted the partial retro the company was offering back in Dec 2000.
I would rather take a negotiated changes to our contract rather than taking it to the Judge because of the risk of our contract getting voided but the company has to be fair if they don't want another Eastern.
ual747mech,
Yes Greenwald was a good CEO. During those times he couldn't do wrong. Concessions from employee's and a great economy. He was able to learn the industry without the problems of a recession. He also had John Edwardson who was an airline man at his side. Tilton only has the idiots that put us where we are today to advise him. That doesn't look good to me.
The problem with threatening a strike is that no body wins. If you walk you give up your right to severance pay and unemployment. It's like quitting your job. You lose the benefits. Solidarity is great but not at the expense of empty pockets. I will let UAL end my job for me unless I find another job first.
Yes Greenwald was a good CEO. During those times he couldn't do wrong. Concessions from employee's and a great economy. He was able to learn the industry without the problems of a recession. He also had John Edwardson who was an airline man at his side. Tilton only has the idiots that put us where we are today to advise him. That doesn't look good to me.
The problem with threatening a strike is that no body wins. If you walk you give up your right to severance pay and unemployment. It's like quitting your job. You lose the benefits. Solidarity is great but not at the expense of empty pockets. I will let UAL end my job for me unless I find another job first.
