How Soon Till U Is Broke?

[Light Years]

Even with the cuts, a typical two wage earner family working at US makes well above what most earn. Did you know that $60,000 in gross family income puts you in the top 20% of gross family imcomes nationwide?

That's roughly what 2 US workers earning Poverty, Slave labor, Express rates earn. if they combine their 2 incomes. Which you have said happens often.

Bob, no offense, but are you crazy?!? $60,000 a year for two Express employees?

Working at mainline I never made more than $21,000 a year. When I worked for an Express carrier a few years ago I made $13,000. I used to live in a crash pad with a bunch of Express pilots/flight attendants and I dont think we could have scraped up $60k a year between us!

$60,000 a year for two! Not for any junior employee! What a hoot! Be sure to suggest to a F/A on a MidAtlantic flight that they should move in with the other F/A and make 60k. See what they say!

 

[Bear96]

1. There are many unemployed educated, business minded folks out there in this industry.

2. You have accepted what mangement has told you about your role and worth and how expendable you are, and you have accepted what reality they have convinced you to be true... being... they're valuable; you are not. They are not replaceable; you are.

3. Everyone is expendable.

1. True. But if they are that great at what they do, why are they unemployed? And if they already have a job elsewhere, why would they want to come over to U? And once they get here, no matter who they are or what they do, they will just be incessantly criticized by you.

2. Actually, what I posted in my last post I figured out all by myself. See, I enjoy takking a critical look at the world around me, looking at all sides to a situation, and ultimately reaching a well thought out, logical, unemotional conclusion. I don't unquestioningly swallow the union line of "management = bad; unionthink = good."

And, I firmly believe I am valuable. In fact I am working on an advanced professional degree to make myself even more valuable in the labor marketplace. Often UNIONS, on the other hand, are preaching a message that I am valueless without the support of a union behind me.

3. Yes, everyone is indeed expendable. But some are more expendable than others-- specifically, front-line service workers at a company desperate to slash costs to stay alive for a few more months in positions that requires no higher education or technical training, whose union leaders refuse to accept certain realities of the business world, no matter how unfair those realities are.

 

[Bear96]

You are DREAMING!!!


The young people coming out of college are brighter, not set in their ways hence flexible, have new ideas without all the past baggage and biases of the old school that this outfit is riddled with. YES, they would come to a company regardless of the current situation, ASK THEM.

Do you work here and work with these people? If so how can still make those statements? If you can then you are part of the problem and just as blind. It has nothing to do with seniority; in fact the old boy school is far worse than seniority could ever be!

So you WANT unexperienced kids coming in and taking over? I know the response will be "They can't do any worse than the people there now!" But I think if you really think that through you may reach a different conclusion. PITbull was just talking about people with experience out there who are looking for a job who would do well; so which is it?

Remember, you would only be getting those not at the top of their classes in their respective business / law / engineering / management / whatever schools. The ones at the tops of their classes do indeed have the luxury of picking and choosing between employers, and are indeed smart enough to consider long-term prospects and opportunities for advancement at a particular company.

Or you would get those who have always wanted to work for an airline for some reason. Talk to some of them-- I think you will be surprised to find, as I have, that most of them think one of the main problems with the airline industry is the high wages of unionized and lower-skilled employees. Guess what their business plan will entail?

More importantly, they often make decisions based on how much they will earn immediately after graduation. And if the unions had their way and the wages of management are slashed further, how competitive do you think that makes U in the eyes of these recent graduates who often have tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt to pay off?

 

[700UW]

PITbull,
With union employees, especially with the more unskilled trades (which, unfortunately, includes the F/A category), management realizes they can get away with more concessions. The workers in that category are tied to the seniority system and are unwilling to give up their seniority to the extent that they will take more cuts in the hopes of keeping it; similar or job opportunities are between slim and none for most (though not all) considering their education and professional training; and management knows these things.

Bear, you are not correct.

The department of labor considers F/As skilled labor, that is why there are no other labor groups in their class and craft.

 

[700UW]

Bob, your figures are crazy,

A utility person at US makes $32,000 a year if lucky.

 

[Bear96]

Bear, you are not correct.

The department of labor considers F/As skilled labor, that is why there are no other labor groups in their class and craft.

I am unfamiliar with Department of Labor classifications. I am speaking more about economic terms, where "skilled" means some sort of advanced degree and technical training is required, and is obtained in a university or technical training institution instead of being provided in-house by the employer.

The key differences using that definition are that someone who is skilled can pack up and move on to another employer-- and even to another industry-- with those sought-after skills, and other employers are willing to pay a premium for those skills.

This is not to say F/As don't have "skills." All jobs have certain skills and require a certain level of training. But you can get a job as a F/A with no specialized outside training or education. F/A employers look for certain inherent qualities all service-industry providers are expected to have, and then train you in-house to the exact specifications of the procedures at that one airline. Another airline, or another employer outside the airline industry, is not likely to pay a premium for that, and if you lose your job as an F/A most likely you will not have an edge over other applicants for other positions unless you have specialized education or training for that position.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Bear96-

Now, that's the sort of perspective and understaning that I'm talking about. If we could just put you and PitBull together.... BearBull.... what a team.

 

[700UW]

Pitbull can probably answer this better, but what is it six week of initial training to be a F/A?

 

[USA320Pilot]

PITBull:

PITBUll said: "Nurses do not "complain" about what Doctors and surgeons make. That just doesn't occur. No one is complaining about pilot salaries except USA320Pilot, who so desperately wants to hold on to "his" and throw everyone else over board to keep it.

USA320Pilot: With all due respect, where did I complain? Furthermore, I never said my W-2 was that figure. I simply took my groos pay, DC Plan contribution, expense money, and stock based compensation and combined the figure in response to 700UW's "Gonad" question. My pay and benfits is a contractual payment -- just like yours -- and is public knowledge.

Every time there is a pending concession many employees always attack the pilots, what's new. But, if you want higher income than seek a higher paying job, what's so difficult about that. For those who want more apy and benefits, the to to school, obtain the training, and then enter the job market.

Starting on Tuesday when the ALPA Negotiating Committee and the company meet to discuss the company's new business plan, we can expect the company to provide an America West type contract offer, which will likely become the bnechmark for all labor groups.

Either labor accepts and participates in the plan or Bronner said the plan will go forward "with or without employees".

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[Light Years]

Pitbull can probably answer this better, but what is it six week of initial training to be a F/A?

US Airways Intitial training is (well, was) six weeks, which doesn't include international training, which you go back for should you choose to bid it. Six or seven weeks is pretty standard at the larger airlines, United's was at one point nine weeks. Commuter airlines are usually only a couple of weeks as they normally dont have as many fleet types, nor do they have comprehensive overwater training and such.

 

[700UW]

You need to make it net income, take out for insurance, taxes, 401K, and any other deductions people have. Since insurance can be $3,000 a year or more now.

 

[PITbull]

1. True. But if they are that great at what they do, why are they unemployed? And if they already have a job elsewhere, why would they want to come over to U? And once they get here, no matter who they are or what they do, they will just be incessantly criticized by you.

2. Actually, what I posted in my last post I figured out all by myself. See, I enjoy takking a critical look at the world around me, looking at all sides to a situation, and ultimately reaching a well thought out, logical, unemotional conclusion. I don't unquestioningly swallow the union line of "management = bad; unionthink = good."

And, I firmly believe I am valuable. In fact I am working on an advanced professional degree to make myself even more valuable in the labor marketplace. Often UNIONS, on the other hand, are preaching a message that I am valueless without the support of a union behind me.

3. Yes, everyone is indeed expendable. But some are more expendable than others-- specifically, front-line service workers at a company desperate to slash costs to stay alive for a few more months in positions that requires no higher education or technical training, whose union leaders refuse to accept certain realities of the business world, no matter how unfair those realities are.

Bear 96,

The market is tight for jobs. Hopefully you have been reading that "outsourcing jobs" to foreign countries is the "in" thing to do in Corporate America today. My daughter who received her Degree from Penn State, in Indus. Psych and Labor relations is having difficulty securing interviews.

With your narrow view of the world and defeatest "mind set", I suggest you stay in school and get educated...you are far from that conclusion.
With regard to union leaders or union reps, employees only need to be organized when they have bad management, otherwise, unions are not necessary. My criticism of this mangement is rightly so, after all, they were the impetus of what has happened to labor in the rest of the industry. Pax will not complain, because they will be the beneficiaries of whatever "hits" labor takes as they subsidize the fare price. That will only last until all airlines hit bottom, than it will be a wait and see who runs out of money first or who sells off first for the execs and stakeholders to "bail" with cash in hand.

Union reps never preach that members are bad or valueless, as you put it. Again, your world has this delusional mindset. Unfortunately, that infection has happened to both UAL and USA employees. Hard to resist the feeling of worthlessness, how else can they get you to believe just what you spue on here about their reality.

You will witness this next vote among employes with these proposals. AFA just completed a survey of the employees in all carriers. I suggest you enrich yourself and get the results. USA particularly.

Folks have met their "threshold"...those frontliners you say that are so expendable.

Luck in your endeavors.

 

[Bear96]

1. My daughter who received her Degree from Penn State, in Indus. Psych and Labor relations is having difficulty securing interviews.

2. With your narrow view of the world and defeatest "mind set", I suggest you stay in school and get educated...you are far from that conclusion.

3. With regard to union leaders or union reps, employees only need to be organized when they have bad management, otherwise, unions are not necessary. My criticism of this mangement is rightly so, after all, they were the impetus of what has happened to labor in the rest of the industry. Pax will not complain, because they will be the beneficiaries of whatever "hits" labor takes as they subsidize the fare price. That will only last until all airlines hit bottom, than it will be a wait and see who runs out of money first or who sells off first for the execs and stakeholders to "bail" with cash in hand.

4. Union reps never preach that members are bad or valueless, as you put it.

5. You will witness this next vote among employes with these proposals. Folks have met their "threshold"...those frontliners you say that are so expendable.

6. AFA just completed a survey of the employees in all carriers. I suggest you enrich yourself and get the results. USA particularly.

PITbull,

You are, as usual, not listening to what I am saying, but rather you have pigeon-holed me into the "management" category and responding as if I am generic "management" in your world-view.

Remember, I am a UA F/A, and an AFA member, and I have been very active within AFA in the past (though I now support the UFAU movement). I take a very cynical view of what airline management proclaims to be the truth. My views are a product of my own thinking. I know that must be shocking for you as an AFA leader to here, that members can formulate views on their own about what is going on around us, since AFA prefers to treat its members paternalistically (or rather, "maternalistically" I suppose, given the demographics of the F/A profession) and feed us the party line and cut down those who question it or oppose it.

Anyway...

1. A Bachelor's degree, especially in such a field as amorphous as "industrial psychology and labor relations," is not worth much these days, sorry to say. (Has she checked on the percentage of Americans who are union members now, and the trends for the future? Wonder why that is-- maybe today's labor leaders have lost touch with certain realities and the members are recognizing this. So now there is not much demand for that field. Did you steer her into it? Oops.)

2. I am not defeatist at all. The goals you fight for are admirable and I agree with much of your philosophy. However, to use a cliche, you can't get blood from a stone. You want blood; U is a stone. Sometimes it is best to recognize the reality of a situation and conserve your energies towards more useful purposes.

3. Agreed. But I fail to see how you are realistically ultimately going to change all of that. (See #2.)

4. What I was getting at is that unions often use a strategy of saying that members are powerless without the union, and tell the members to keep on paying the dues and not questioning union leadership because you are better off with us than without us. My point was, Is that really any different than what you claim management's attitude towards employees are?

5. The next U concessions vote is not of much concern to me, and in reality it will be pretty insignificant as to the ultimate future of U. I am not surprised people at U have met their threshhold; were I at U, I would probably feel the same way. But I still don't understand why you don't seem to be able to grasp that to a corporation, we are all seen as "expendable." Hasn't what has been going on around you at U shown you just how expendable F/As and other employees are? Maybe you are using a non-standard English definition of the word-- I dunno.

6. The AFA vote is of little concern to me either as we at UA are preparing to leave AFA, and depending on the fate of U, UFAU stands a good chance of becoming larger than what will be left of AFA. AFA is about to become very insignificant.

 

[PITbull]

Bear,

UFAU? Your cards are on the table, and I appreciate you not being covert. I now understand your views ever so clearly.

What troubles me with your above response is...why union at all? Why doesn't your group just "wing it on their own" since you specifically claim to know the realities of the industry and the known outcomes of what must be.

Why resist? As you imply to us. So, I ask, why form another union, unless its of course to band all you United "wanna be mangement" folks together to acquiese together...(oops).

Unions (no matter what union) are organizations whose premise is to be the collective voice of its membership. Union Reps, (spokes persons) sole purpose is to protect the collective bargaining agreement and ensure that both parties abide by the language. If they don't, unions have recourse through a grievance process. Other than that, they are to educate, communicate, be the voice in the work place to ensure a safe, healthy environment in which to work. F rom the many United f/as I have had the pleasure of meeting, they didn't have a clear definition of what Unions are suppose to represent. Nor, do they understand their roles as active members. An inactive membership will create corruption in all union organizations, as this is what creates the "disconnect" which management relishes. What I have found even here at USAirways is that f/as think their union reps are THE UNION, and that they as members just sit back and bring their complaints to the reps and want them to perform, with no participation from the membership. Most don't even read their contracts or carry it with them. So, where does the membership responsibility start and at what point does it end?

If you think that UFAU will more represent United because it is United f/as only, you should ask American f/as if it works for them. If you believe AFA got too politically corrupted, (as I heard from some ofyour supporters) what will you do to ensure those safeguards and protect a newly founded union from those corruptions?

Just an FYI for you...Employee Relations is in every organization/Company that has employees to deal with. And being that anxiety is high in the work place today, not just Aviation, having an Industrial Psychologist to assess and evaluate morale in hopes of making improvements, is vital to businesses who want to succeed and be sustaining.

PS: Actually, my daughter is planning to go to Dental School in the future.

BTW, AFA has joined CWA. AFA would be far from insignificant.

 

[Bear96]

1. What trouble's me with your above response is...why union at all? Why doesn't your group just "wing it on their own" since you specifically claim to know the realities of the industry and the known outcomes of what must be.

2. Unions (no matter what union) are organizations whose premise is to be the collective voice of its membership. Union Reps, (spokes persons) sole purpose is to protect the collective bargaining agreement and ensure that both parties abide by the language. If they don't, unions have recourse through a grievance process. Other than that, they are to educate, communicate, be the voice in the work place to ensure a safe, healthy environment in which to work.

3. From the many United f/as I have had the pleasure of meeting, they didn't have a clear definition of what Unions are suppose to represent. Nor, do they understand their roles as active members. An inactive membership will create corruption in all union organizations, as this is what creates the "disconnect" which management relishes. What I have found even here at USAirways is that f/as think their union reps are THE UNION, and that they as members just sit back and bring their complaints to the reps and want them to perform, with no participation from the membership. Most don't even read their contracts or carry it with them. So, where does the membership responsibility start and at what point does it end?

4. Just an FYI for you...Employee Relations is in every organization/Company that has employees to deal with.
PS: Actually, my daughter is planning to go to Dental School in the future.

5. BTW, AFA has joined CWA. AFA would be far from insignificant.

You know what PITbull I think we have more in common than not.

1. Why union? See the part of your own post I have labelled #2. I completely agree with the goals of unions and see them as necessary in the airline industry.

Unfortunately, to use your examples, AFA has NOT done a good job of protecting our collective bargaining agreement. Our grievance system is TERRIBLE and members have been complaining about it for years-- but it has always been way down on the list of priorities for AFA leadership. And with the CWA merger, that is only going to get worse. Do you really think the CWA muckety-mucks with their larger political agenda care about the detailed, minute scheduling issues that are so important to F/As?

3. I agree COMPLETELY. And this is what first soured me on doing union work. I got sick of the apathy of the members and their total ignorance of what unions are and can do for them, and their total unwillingness to take any degree of responsibility for their own role in the union. This is actually a problem I see in almost all unions today, not just F/A or airline unions.

Will UFAU be different in that regard? Probably not. But my biggest beef with AFA is the internal structure, where we as UA F/As see over half of our dues money going towards purposes we don't want. The CWA merger will, in my opinion, only widen that divide. But I don't want to get this thread TOO far off course; I have opined more about this topic in the UA forums where there are some threads having to do with the UFAU movement, which would be a more appropriate place to finish that conversation.

4. My apologies; I am not familiar with the Penn State program. I took "labor relations" to mean she was hoping to work with labor unions specifically, not "employee relations" more generally. I think dental school is a wiser career choice if that is a type of work that interests her.

5. I think the CWA leaders will be very disappointed in Pat Friend if the UFAU movement is successful. They primarily wanted AFA for the UA F/As' dues money, and to become more of a force in the airline labor industry by getting 50,000 + more airline workers in one fell swoop. There is a very real possibility that the AFA contingent at CWA will consist of a few tiny carriers with sub-standard wages and working conditions and benefits, that end up sucking a lot more resources from the parent organization than they put in, as is the case today. Pat will have a lot of 'splainin' to do.