How low in wages would a pilot go?

[Bear96]

[blockquote]
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On 10/22/2002 11:46:43 AM Busdrvr wrote:

The ENTIRE active pilot payrole at UAL is just over 1.5 billion a year. That INCLUDES benefits...
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[/blockquote]


I don't think that is accurate. According to UAL's own figures, the total employee compensation for 2002 was $7.2 billion, and pilots make up 30% of that figure, or $2.16B.

Expressed another way (still from UAL figures), the average compensation for each UAL pilot (including benefits) in 2002 was about $256,000. Multiplied by a little over 8,000 pilots (let's round it to 8,200 pilots, not sure of the exact pilot population on any given day in 2002) it is still about $2.1B.

But if my figures are wrong please let me know where you are getting your numbers from and I will stand corrected.

 

[UAL777flyer]

autofixer,

Great post. I wish you luck in running your business. Hopefully, it'll prove to be alot more successful than this industry.

Your post was 100% dead-on, in that there is so much selfishness and me, first thinking in this business. So many adopt a sense of entitlement by looking at what everyone else is making, either at their airline, or at other airlines. It's ridiculous. People demand industry-leading contracts and then scream when work is outsourced cheaper. It's simple economics. Unless MAJOR changes are made, this industry will implode and take a few airlines with it when all is said and done. Those that are willing to forget the past, realize it's a whole new ballgame, and work together to adapt will be survivers. Those that don't will just wither and die.

 

[pitguy]

It will be hard for our company to make money when they are paying mechanics slightly above commuter wages, but still paying the pilot group allot above commuter wages. Our company is not a big airline, but is closer in scope to a large feeder airline and can no longer afford to pay those big pie in the sky salaries to pilots. I feel the pilots must accept responsibility and take salaries just above a commuter airline.

Bad medicine is always hard to swallow, but it is good for you.

Do they still pay pilots 'not' to fly?

The company should look at cutting 'some' of the crew meals too.

 

[chipmunn]

[P align=justify][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]The employee cost problem is not W-2 for US Airways pilots or for that matter other employee groups, the problem is productivity across-the-board. US Airways pilots are close to the lowest paid hub and spoke pilots now that the restructuring agreements have been implemented per the table below. [/FONT][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Pilots' annual salaries after 5 years time of service are:[/FONT][BR][BR]
[P align=justify][FONT face=Times New Roman][FONT size=3]Airline Captain First Officer[/FONT][/FONT][BR][BR]
[P align=justify][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]United $306,000 $129,000 [BR]Delta $263,000 $117,000[BR]Northwest $220,000 $100,000[BR]American $212,000 $97,000 [BR]US Airways $203,000 $110,000[BR]Continental $201,000 $98,000 [/FONT][BR][BR]
[P align=justify][FONT face=Times New Roman size=1]Source: AIR, Inc.[/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Productivity items that have created a high labor expense are items such as mechanics on the tugs, multiple ramp personnel job descriptions, not having flight attendant ticket lift, flight crew cleaning aircraft at non-hub stations, an inefficient flight crew scheduling system, and an inefficient flight crew reserve system are some examples. These so called life style issues increase staffing significantly over companies like Southwest and JetBlue, which is the primary reason for the difference between high cost mature and low cost airline labor expense. [/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Chip[/FONT][/P]

 

[exjetgurl]

[P]Chip,[/P]
[P]Some of the jobs you listed are sacred cows to some of the unions. Do you think the unions will do the changes on their own, or will Dave have to use the courts to change them?[/P]

 

[767jetz]

[blockquote]
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On 10/23/2002 10:18:15 AM chipmunn wrote:

[P align=justify][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]US Airways pilots are close to the lowest paid hub and spoke pilots now that the restructuring agreements have been implemented per the table below. [/FONT][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]Pilots' annual salaries after 5 years time of service are:[/FONT]


[P align=justify][FONT face="Times New Roman"][FONT size=3]Airline Captain First Officer[/FONT][/FONT]


[P align=justify][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]United $306,000 $129,000
Delta $263,000 $117,000
Northwest $220,000 $100,000
American $212,000 $97,000
US Airways $203,000 $110,000
Continental $201,000 $98,000 [/FONT]


[P align=justify][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1]Source: AIR, Inc.[/FONT]



[FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]Chip[/FONT][/P]
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[/blockquote]

Chip,

What on Earth are you talking about??!!!! Where do you get these numbers from? This is the kind of misinformation that fuels the publics hatred and jealousy of our profession. Shame on you! At least post accurate info.

I cannot speak for other airlines because I don't have their contracts available. I'm assuming you're trying to quote the highest paid equipment. First of all, show me a 5 year 747-400 captin or F/O at United Airlines. They don't exist. In fact most pilots at United will NEVER see the left seat of that airplane or the 777 for that matter.

Let's take this fictional 5th year 747-400 captain. Based on current rates and guarantee he/she would make $281,277 per year. That's a far cry from the $306,000 you quote from Air,inc. You of all people should know that Air,inc. makes huge generalizations about pilot compensation to come up with their numbers.

I know the topic on this post is pilot wages, and it sounds like you are trying to sway your fellow employees against you taking a further hit, by claiming that you are SO FAR behind your counterparts elsewhere. At least give them accurate info.

How about using rates on similar aircraft:

10 year A320 captain at UA - $204,993
5 year A320 F/O at UA - $126,027

10 year 737 captain at UA - $184,005
5 year 737 F/O - $112,527

I know that Delta pilots are in the same ball park and actually a few percent higher than UA. And remember, these are current rates, which we all know will be significantly lower very soon.

Now, how does that compare to where you are after your concessions?

 

[chipmunn]

Exjetgurl:

Execgurl asked: Some of the jobs you listed are sacred cows to some of the unions. Do you think the unions will do the changes on their own, or will Dave have to use the courts to change them?

Chip answers: At this point it is difficult to determine. Additional cuts will have to come from all stakeholders, whether its vendors, creditors, lessors, or employees. All stakeholders are trying to so the same thing, hold on to what they have.

I know for fact Dave Siegel does not want further labor cuts and what has happened to this industry pains him. But what choice does the man have? Let the airline liquidate?

Dave recognizes it would be difficult for employees to take much more of a W-2 cut, therefore, any changes would need to come from productivity, benefits and/or pensions. Dave does not want to do this, but if he can not obtain further cuts from other than labor stakeholders, he will have no alternative but to seek labor concessions.

Whether it’s consensual or court-ordered is an open question.

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

[FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]767jetz:[BR][BR]The information came from Air Inc. per my source listing and was published in the Wall Street Journal. W-2 is not the issue, it's productivity for all hub and spoke airline employee groups. Today's article posted in Time Magazine Online titled [SPAN class=headline]One Airline's Magic - [/SPAN]How does Southwest soar above its money-losing rivals? Its employees work harder and smarter, in return for job secuirty and a share of the profits clearly illustrates the problems with labor expense.[BR][BR]Chip[/FONT]

 

[767jetz]

[blockquote]
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On 10/23/2002 11:55:49 AM chipmunn wrote:

[FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]767jetz:

The information came from Air Inc. per my source listing and was published in the Wall Street Journal.

Chip[/FONT]
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[/blockquote]

Recycling incomplete info, or info taken out of context is still misleading and does nothing to help your credibility.

You also haven't responded to my question of comparable rates on the specific fleets I mentioned. Do you care to give us some real numbers to correct your previous post?

 

[chipmunn]

767jetz:

767jetz said: Recycling incomplete info, or info taken out of context is still misleading and does nothing to help your credibility.

Chip comments: With all due respect, the Air Inc. data goes from the lowest to the highest paying piece of equipment. For mature airlines pilots are paid by aircraft gross weight. Therefore, generally if an airline operates B-747s they will have higher pay than a company who operates narrowbody aircraft.

This is the crux of the seniority issue where UA ALPA has attempted to bypass ALPA National Merger Policy with UA's two previous attempts to merger with UA and the recent UA-ALPA ERP TA.

The Air Inc. data is generally correct when discussing W-2, but as Time Magazine just reported this is only a part of the labor expense issue. Work rules, benefits, and pensions also enter into the discussion across-the-board.

Chip

 

[767jetz]

Ah, Chip. You are the master of avoiding the question and manipulating the facts.

Chip said: For mature airlines pilots are paid by aircraft gross weight. Therefore, generally if an airline operates B-747s they will have higher pay than a company who operates narrowbody aircraft.

767jetz responds: If you want to compare mature airlines pilots flying 747's to mature airlines pilots flying A320's at least clarify that in your chart. Otherwise the information is misleading to the non-pilots reading your posts. Also, it would be proper to point out the small % of the pilots who actually fly those large planes and make that money. A more fair comparison might be to use an average W2 of all pilots on all fleets. Your point was to say that your pay is at the bottom of the industry already, far behind other airlines, and you should not have to give more. I don't dispute that. But for the benefit of your fellow US employees, at least paint an accurate picture for them.

Chip said: This is the crux of the seniority issue where UA ALPA has attempted to bypass ALPA National Merger Policy with UA's two previous attempts to merger with UA and the recent UA-ALPA ERP TA.

767jetz responds: There you go again, with comments that try to paint UA pilots as greedy folks who want to screw the 'Chips' of the world, rather than pilots who want to protect what they PAID for with their own $. For those reading this, let's once again clarify the facts that Chip likes to ignore. ALPA meger policy CLEARLY states that seniority integration is based on current CAREER EXPECTATIONS. A prenuptual agreement is a legal contract that assures those expectations are protected, so that there is no further fighting, law suits, and manipulation of seniority. It is quite common in a PURCHASE. Just look to AA/TWA for an example. It would also have been an agreed upon resolution from both sides. As the purchasing party, we put the prenup on the table. It would have been US ALPA's choice to turn it down and forgo the purchase of their airline. An important fact to remember is that it was not a merger, but rather a purchase, using the money of the employee-owners. Now can we please put this old, old, old issue to rest, since it is completely irrelevant to the current discussion?

Chip said: The Air Inc. data is generally correct when discussing W-2,

767jetz responds: Well, not in this instance. I have given you correct info strait from our current (soon-to-be-changed) contract. The numbers you posted from Air,Inc are incorrect. Care to correct yourself?

767jetz concludes: Instead of avoiding the questions, would you please give everyone the actual comparison between the 10yr captain/ 5yr F/O on the A320 and 737, using your current concessionary pay scale and the UA numbers I posted earlier?

 

[Bob Owens]

No company has ever been able to get the court to throw out a section 1113 agreement since it has been enacted in 1982. TWA employees agreed to concessions in their last bankruptcy. AMR filed to abrogate the section 1113 agreement and the judge said NO!

Nice, I wish you would have said that 6 weeks ago.

 

[Bob Owens]

Autofixer;
Kshhhht, glug, glug, glug glug, ahhh, Buuurp!
Good ruck foo you. Bup buuurp!
Hey where is that damn remote! HONEY I need another cold one! What time does Jerry Spinger come on?

 

[Bob Owens]

oldiebutgoodie;
I've NEVER heard pilots insist that ANYONE take a paycut

Well I have. The gentleman was introduced as an official on the UAL/ALPA MEC. He said it to me in front of witnesses.It was at the APA Texas Syle Barbeque in Manhattan on Sept 9, 2002.

Show where I've insisted that pilots should take pay cuts. Read what Ive said.
Maybe your a little more older than you realize and not quite as good!

 

[pitguy]

Chip,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate how you clearly bring up in your chart that we compare our pilots to the BIG PLAYERS, for which our company 'clearly' is not. That helps clarify the fact that our pilots make to much for our type of airline. We are not a big player, we are closer to a feeder airline and we should have our pilots salaries compared to a feeder type airline and not a 'big player's for which we are not. The salary truth for the pilots lies somewhere between an RJ pilot and a major carrier pilot. Probably in the range of $65,000 to $100,000 for a pay scale.

In regards to the tug slug function. Allot of the mechanics were willing to give that function up since it does not 'protect' that many jobs. Please remember that the company would still have to have some mechanics standing by for line maintenance calls which would take longer to respond to if a mechanic was not stationed close by resulting in possible delays. The company gave the mechanics a take it or leave it contract not a tentative agreement (a.k.a. a 'TA'). They (the company) chose not to put in language for removing the tug slug function and to alleviate flight delays might have been the reason why. Please remember allot of mechanics did not want this forced agreement, but allot of pilots on this very message board told us to vote for it. I am told part of the reason our wages and other work rules where reduced so much was to protect some jobs. Most of us said pay the money that should be paid and make the cuts that are deemed required. Plus we have tons of union issues that appears to be leading to a drive for a new union for representation of the mechanics.

I remember when they paid pilots not to fly. I hope that is not done any more...........