Guest
Exactly what is unfair
I too would like to thank the FA''s
- Thread starter AA70
- Start date
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On 4/15/2003 11:51:00 PM A77IGW wrote:
if we continue with the current contract is what Ernst and Young meant. If we get concessions we have a chance. But if you as a majority want to vote no than see you in court and watch the judge give it to the apfa with no lube
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The auditor cited the recent history of significant losses, negative cash flows from operations, uncertainty about its operating costs, liquidity requirements in credit agreements, and diminishing financial resources.On 4/15/2003 11:51:00 PM A77IGW wrote:
if we continue with the current contract is what Ernst and Young meant. If we get concessions we have a chance. But if you as a majority want to vote no than see you in court and watch the judge give it to the apfa with no lube
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We are going to BK, with, or with out agreements. AA tried once already. HAd they been able to secure a credit line we would already be there. The unions just bought us a couple extra weeks outside the court.
PS before we see the judge to get screwed as you seem to wish so bad. AA will have to negotiate, in good faith and on fair terms.
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 10,154
- 681
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On 4/15/2003 11:00:41 PM eolesen wrote:
Bears, at least get your facts straight.
AA was more than prepared to live with APFA''s initial vote. APFA asked for more time.
What are you so worried about with this? If today''s vote was as representative as you believe it to be, then it will be just as representative tomorrow as well.
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On 4/15/2003 11:00:41 PM eolesen wrote:
Bears, at least get your facts straight.
AA was more than prepared to live with APFA''s initial vote. APFA asked for more time.
What are you so worried about with this? If today''s vote was as representative as you believe it to be, then it will be just as representative tomorrow as well.
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ERIC;
Another case of us, agreeing to disagree.( and i''m always glad that we have the common sense to do so)
IMHO, this is a "joint effort". regardless of who asked who, for a re-vote! The bottom line is THEY WANT A DIFFERENT RESULT("YES") !!!!!!!!
I''m VERY dissapointed in John Ward. As a union man(non F/A) I thought that JW had the most "gumption"(SP?), between Jim Little, John Darrah, and himself(JW).
Eric;
to tell you the truth, I never rely on(MOST OF) the pilots, as union men. Given the very nature of what they do, they have strength automatically. Most of them are Republicans, and I have never viewed them in a "traditional union sense". Hey, I''m just calling it as I see it!!!!!!!
My own union(if you can call it that) is an ABSOLUTE DISGRACE. "PERIOD" !!!!!!!!!!! (and thats ALL i''m going to say on that matter.
AH, but the flight attendants. NO group of union people have EVER been MORE VILIFIED(SP?), than the members of APFA(by management). But they have GREAT BIG SHOULDERS(GOD BLESS THEM), and they just "shrug it off", go about their business, and WALK WITH PRIDE, while they stay VERY UNIFIED !!!!!!!!!
THEY ARE THE REAL DEAL., and from someone like myself( a union man SUFFERING from lack of real representation), I Hold them IN THE HIGHEST ESTEEM !!!!!!!
To me, the MAJORITY OF APFA MEMBERS, "WALK ON WATER"
NH/BB''s
spacewaitress
Senior
- Aug 27, 2002
- 468
- 0
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On 4/15/2003 11:12:55 PM AA70 wrote:
... All I am saying is that what I am reading on here is a bunch of folks whining about furlough pay.
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On 4/15/2003 11:12:55 PM AA70 wrote:
... All I am saying is that what I am reading on here is a bunch of folks whining about furlough pay.
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God, I''ve heard it all. As a flight attendant, I can tell you the issues are deeper than furlough pay.
Why don''t you go bake some more cookies?
wwtraveler99
Member
- Jan 31, 2003
- 94
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If AA F/As vote no again how many more times will they be given a chance to "change" thier minds? I think the F/A''s did a great job in standing up for what they believe in. This company has screwed the employees over too many times. I say they will not get my money until a BK judge say they can have it. My vote is cast in what I believe I can accept. I do not voye yes or no based on what it will do to others. I vote yes or no based on what it will do or not do for me.
Whatever happens I wish everone the best of luck.
Whatever happens I wish everone the best of luck.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #22
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On 4/16/2003 10:30:26 AM spacewaitress wrote:
God, I''ve heard it all. As a flight attendant, I can tell you the issues are deeper than furlough pay.
Why don''t you go bake some more cookies?
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Wow, talk about stereotyping. How do you know I bake cookies? Here''s an FYI for you, I have a MSBA and am just going back for a criminology degree. Obviously you aren''t getting what i am trying to say. In a war..and this is a "war", you choose your battles. In my personal opinion, which I am completely entitled to, this isn''t a battle that is a wise choice. I think it is great that you want to make a stand, this just isn''t the time to do it. The time to make a stand would be in 2007 or whenever you can begin negotiations for the next contract. If you choose to make your stand here and now, you will lose, not just this battle but the war as well. I would think that if surviving on the income and this t/a is offering is possible that you might want to cut your losses and get on down the road hoping that the company can stay out of the courts. Then, when you can begin negotiating a few years from now for the next contract, that is when you make your stand and demands. In 5 years the economy will be far better than it is right now and they will have the cash to give...if they don''t want to give it, that is when you make the noise and stand up for what you believe is right. This isn''t the time to go for the jugular, this is the time to move only sideways and maybe even a back up a little, but when that vein is nice and full, that is when you go for the throat and that is when you will get it. On 4/16/2003 10:30:26 AM spacewaitress wrote:
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On 4/15/2003 11:12:55 PM AA70 wrote:
... All I am saying is that what I am reading on here is a bunch of folks whining about furlough pay.
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On 4/15/2003 11:12:55 PM AA70 wrote:
... All I am saying is that what I am reading on here is a bunch of folks whining about furlough pay.
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God, I''ve heard it all. As a flight attendant, I can tell you the issues are deeper than furlough pay.
Why don''t you go bake some more cookies?
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Mike, I, too, know drs and lawyers. I know some who are so smart that they would make all of our heads spin and some who are dumber than a bag of hammers.
OK, WW, there won''t be another vote because the Company will be in Bankruptcy. FA Mikey - Take the TA you just voted down and add another 100 million dollars more in concessions and that will be what you get from out of Bankruptcy, Also, extend it for a full 6 years with NO, NADA, ZERO provisions for profit sharing, stock options, or early negotiations.
Interesting thing was said by John Darrah on the APA Hotline this weekend. He urged pilots to vote for the TA, giving the reason that in the event that the company might enforce a more punitive contract in bankruptcy proceedings to any union that didn''t pass their TA.
The company has outlined that it will need 2.3 billion in annual savings in accordance with the DIP covenents that are lined up. How much of this additional half a billion dollars will come from the one union that failed to vote in their TA?
The company has outlined that it will need 2.3 billion in annual savings in accordance with the DIP covenents that are lined up. How much of this additional half a billion dollars will come from the one union that failed to vote in their TA?
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On 4/16/2003 11:55:20 AM AA70 wrote:
In my personal opinion, which I am completely entitled to, this isn''t a battle that is a wise choice. I think it is great that you want to make a stand, this just isn''t the time to do it. The time to make a stand would be in 2007 or whenever you can begin negotiations for the next contract. If you choose to make your stand here and now, you will lose, not just this battle but the war as well. I would think that if surviving on the income and this t/a is offering is possible that you might want to cut your losses and get on down the road hoping that the company can stay out of the courts. Then, when you can begin negotiating a few years from now for the next contract, that is when you make your stand and demands. In 5 years the economy will be far better than it is right now and they will have the cash to give...if they don''t want to give it, that is when you make the noise and stand up for what you believe is right. This isn''t the time to go for the jugular, this is the time to move only sideways and maybe even a back up a little, but when that vein is nice and full, that is when you go for the throat and that is when you will get it.
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I disagree this is the time and place to say, No, to one sided gun to the head take or leave it deals. That''s how AA wants to play it fine. I leave it. They had every opportunity to make a mutually beneficial deal for both sides. AA is looking to gut the contract in one fine swoop, and with our blessing. The will take the QAL life that has taken years of hard work and honest give and take to achieve, and throw it out the door.On 4/16/2003 11:55:20 AM AA70 wrote:
In my personal opinion, which I am completely entitled to, this isn''t a battle that is a wise choice. I think it is great that you want to make a stand, this just isn''t the time to do it. The time to make a stand would be in 2007 or whenever you can begin negotiations for the next contract. If you choose to make your stand here and now, you will lose, not just this battle but the war as well. I would think that if surviving on the income and this t/a is offering is possible that you might want to cut your losses and get on down the road hoping that the company can stay out of the courts. Then, when you can begin negotiating a few years from now for the next contract, that is when you make your stand and demands. In 5 years the economy will be far better than it is right now and they will have the cash to give...if they don''t want to give it, that is when you make the noise and stand up for what you believe is right. This isn''t the time to go for the jugular, this is the time to move only sideways and maybe even a back up a little, but when that vein is nice and full, that is when you go for the throat and that is when you will get it.
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We lose either way. AA chose to make it like this. Offering a bad or worse choice. Each person must decide which choice is bad and which is worse. It different for all.
Gutting our pay and work rules and telling us we have to wait until 2008 to negotiate to get them back. Then its a question of what you want to give up to get back what you already gave up. In a court AA loses the gun to the head. The have to negotiate on the terms set fourth by the court.
Most of us will be able to survive on the income. The major problem comes in the quality of life. The work rules. Having eight hours and fifteen minutes from gate arrival until you must be on board the following day. Shows how bad they intend to make life on us. Work a 12 or 14 hour day, if you are lucky get 6 hours sleep. Then off to another 12 hour day. Hope we are able to find a chance to stop to eat in all that.
We are not being asked to move sideways or even back just a little. We are being pushed down to the ground and then kicked back 20 years in work rule concessions. With absolutely no credit for any savings. This is all about TAKE. Making sure when we do go in to BK, and we will. That Every group will be forced to negotiate from the lowest level possible.
They used a similar strategy in the interest arbitration. Instead of working off the last agreement on the table that November. AA tried and failed to work from a position that we were at almost four months prior in July.
usfliboi
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 2,070
- 270
Coming from a Usairways employee and f/a, i assure you that aa will file bk either way. This makes it easier for them not you thats all. Good luck to you guys I hope either way it turns out ok for you ! We are all in a ship badly damage but were not gonna drown!
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On 4/16/2003 12:00:40 AM FA Mikey wrote:
PS before we see the judge to get screwed as you seem to wish so bad. AA will have to negotiate, in good faith and on fair terms.
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Ahhhh, but this is the million dollar question. Will AA have to go back and negotiate? Or have they met the requirements of BK law already and be allowed to go for abrogation? Who would want to go negotiate again anyway? Do you REALLY THINK THE TERMS ARE GOING TO GET BETTER? If the APFA was negotiating with a gun to its head before, its now going to have a bazooka! The crux of the problem here is we''re not dealing with a bunch of rocket scientists who can understand the bankrupcy process. These NO voters think there''s a Judge Judy thats waiting to hear their sob story in court and rap Carty''s knuckles! Unfortunatly the only thing thats going to be waiting for the APFA in BK court is their demise!On 4/16/2003 12:00:40 AM FA Mikey wrote:
PS before we see the judge to get screwed as you seem to wish so bad. AA will have to negotiate, in good faith and on fair terms.
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AAmech,
They will negotiate eventually. If they don''t and go ahead and get our contract abrogated. Do you think anyone of us will show up to work if there is a contract forced on us by either a judge or Carty? Don''t forget, we can strike if we are forced to work under a contract that wasn''t ratified. Don''t worry, we did it once, we will do it again. I think Carty is a little smarter than that, I hope he is.
They will negotiate eventually. If they don''t and go ahead and get our contract abrogated. Do you think anyone of us will show up to work if there is a contract forced on us by either a judge or Carty? Don''t forget, we can strike if we are forced to work under a contract that wasn''t ratified. Don''t worry, we did it once, we will do it again. I think Carty is a little smarter than that, I hope he is.
