How low in wages would a pilot go?
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pitguy
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Busdrvr,
You said it perfectly and that is why you should vote 'yes' to more give backs for the pilots. You must save the company. I would say $65,000 for the lower captain and $100,000 for a senior 767 captain should be enough to stave off the competition. The real competition for you will most likely be the new RJ pilots since they can fly your routes easily.
When you stated:
He'd spent the prior 15-20 years going to college, then working his way up through the ranks of civilian aviation or the military.
Man you must have one heck of a degree or a slow learner. My fathers heart surgeon only spent 10 years in college.
You said it perfectly and that is why you should vote 'yes' to more give backs for the pilots. You must save the company. I would say $65,000 for the lower captain and $100,000 for a senior 767 captain should be enough to stave off the competition. The real competition for you will most likely be the new RJ pilots since they can fly your routes easily.
When you stated:
He'd spent the prior 15-20 years going to college, then working his way up through the ranks of civilian aviation or the military.
Man you must have one heck of a degree or a slow learner. My fathers heart surgeon only spent 10 years in college.
C
chipmunn
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I find fault in this thread for two reasons:
If a person believes a pilot should go down to Express rates so should other employee groups. Second, there is no such thing as entitlement or socialized pay in the industry.
In my opinion, if the company does not have the revenue to cover its costs, it will go back into court, especially in Virginia, and file a S.1113 motion to cancel union contracts, if necessary. The company prepared and filed the legal briefs once and can do it again if it believes it is necessary to have the court abrogate the contracts.
The issue is not what we believe we are worth, it's what the company can afford to pay its employees.
Chip
If a person believes a pilot should go down to Express rates so should other employee groups. Second, there is no such thing as entitlement or socialized pay in the industry.
In my opinion, if the company does not have the revenue to cover its costs, it will go back into court, especially in Virginia, and file a S.1113 motion to cancel union contracts, if necessary. The company prepared and filed the legal briefs once and can do it again if it believes it is necessary to have the court abrogate the contracts.
The issue is not what we believe we are worth, it's what the company can afford to pay its employees.
Chip
pitguy
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Great idea Chip. The mechanics are about $4,000 per year above express mechanic rates. It would help if the pilot group would come to that level too. It is nice you are willing to help out further. I will foreward your suggestion to managment.
Chip;
What is it you do and who do you work for?
Tell me when was the last time a Judge abrogated a labor agreement in the airline industry?
Was that before or after the new rules were put in place?
Why should the judge abrogate the contract when the employees have already agreed to paycuts, the lowest vacation allotment in the industry and less holodays?
Just because a company goes into bankruptcy it does not mean that they get a blank check. Their requests have to be reasonable. If he voids the contracts the workers are free to strike which would doom the company even if they didnt, the creditors would run for the hills.
What is it you do and who do you work for?
Tell me when was the last time a Judge abrogated a labor agreement in the airline industry?
Was that before or after the new rules were put in place?
Why should the judge abrogate the contract when the employees have already agreed to paycuts, the lowest vacation allotment in the industry and less holodays?
Just because a company goes into bankruptcy it does not mean that they get a blank check. Their requests have to be reasonable. If he voids the contracts the workers are free to strike which would doom the company even if they didnt, the creditors would run for the hills.
Busdvr;
Good for you. Just dont expect mechanics to accept pay cuts to save your investment. The fact is that once you get to that big number the chances of you getting a comparably paying job outside the industry are slim.If you accept pay cuts you will be able to get it back in a few years, mechanics never will.
ual727fo
I like my job, I just expect to be paid a fair price for what I do. If you dont like what I have to say just scroll on by. Are you checked out on scrolling?
Good for you. Just dont expect mechanics to accept pay cuts to save your investment. The fact is that once you get to that big number the chances of you getting a comparably paying job outside the industry are slim.If you accept pay cuts you will be able to get it back in a few years, mechanics never will.
ual727fo
I like my job, I just expect to be paid a fair price for what I do. If you dont like what I have to say just scroll on by. Are you checked out on scrolling?
Bsdvr;
by the way, I never said pilots were overpaid. I said that pilots should not be telling mechanics to take pay cuts to save $300k a year pilots jobs.
ual727fo;
My intent is not to put the pilots against the mechanics. I just dont like it when top paid pilots, who may very well decerve every penny they get, get scared by management and tell mechanics that they should accept pay cuts. They should stay out of it. But if they are going into what mechanics should accept as compensation then they shouldnt get upset when mechanics start to look at what pilots are making.The fact is that top paid pilots are paid extremely well. These guys have the most to lose if the company folds. Mechanics on the other hand may lose more through concessions than if the company folds.
by the way, I never said pilots were overpaid. I said that pilots should not be telling mechanics to take pay cuts to save $300k a year pilots jobs.
ual727fo;
My intent is not to put the pilots against the mechanics. I just dont like it when top paid pilots, who may very well decerve every penny they get, get scared by management and tell mechanics that they should accept pay cuts. They should stay out of it. But if they are going into what mechanics should accept as compensation then they shouldnt get upset when mechanics start to look at what pilots are making.The fact is that top paid pilots are paid extremely well. These guys have the most to lose if the company folds. Mechanics on the other hand may lose more through concessions than if the company folds.
No company has ever been able to get the court to throw out a section 1113 agreement since it has been enacted in 1982. TWA employees agreed to concessions in their last bankruptcy. AMR filed to abrogate the section 1113 agreement and the judge said NO!
oldiebutgoody
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/22/2002 9:01:24 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Bsdvr;
by the way, I never said pilots were overpaid. I said that pilots should not be telling mechanics to take pay cuts to save $300k a year pilots jobs.
ual727fo;
My intent is not to put the pilots against the mechanics. I just dont like it when top paid pilots, who may very well decerve every penny they get, get scared by management and tell mechanics that they should accept pay cuts. They should stay out of it. But if they are going into what mechanics should accept as compensation then they shouldnt get upset when mechanics start to look at what pilots are making.The fact is that top paid pilots are paid extremely well. These guys have the most to lose if the company folds. Mechanics on the other hand may lose more through concessions than if the company folds.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I've NEVER heard pilots insist that ANYONE take a paycut. I hear lots of other groups (including AA mechanics, right Bob?) insist that pilots do so. You can bet one thing. Even if Dave goes back to the judge in order to cancel contracts PILOTS WILL STILL MAKE MORE THAN MECHANICS! That's the reality of the situation.
----------------
On 10/22/2002 9:01:24 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Bsdvr;
by the way, I never said pilots were overpaid. I said that pilots should not be telling mechanics to take pay cuts to save $300k a year pilots jobs.
ual727fo;
My intent is not to put the pilots against the mechanics. I just dont like it when top paid pilots, who may very well decerve every penny they get, get scared by management and tell mechanics that they should accept pay cuts. They should stay out of it. But if they are going into what mechanics should accept as compensation then they shouldnt get upset when mechanics start to look at what pilots are making.The fact is that top paid pilots are paid extremely well. These guys have the most to lose if the company folds. Mechanics on the other hand may lose more through concessions than if the company folds.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I've NEVER heard pilots insist that ANYONE take a paycut. I hear lots of other groups (including AA mechanics, right Bob?) insist that pilots do so. You can bet one thing. Even if Dave goes back to the judge in order to cancel contracts PILOTS WILL STILL MAKE MORE THAN MECHANICS! That's the reality of the situation.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/22/2002 9:29:48 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/22/2002 9:01:24 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Bsdvr;
by the way, I never said pilots were overpaid. I said that pilots should not be telling mechanics to take pay cuts to save $300k a year pilots jobs.
ual727fo;
My intent is not to put the pilots against the mechanics. I just dont like it when top paid pilots, who may very well decerve every penny they get, get scared by management and tell mechanics that they should accept pay cuts. They should stay out of it. But if they are going into what mechanics should accept as compensation then they shouldnt get upset when mechanics start to look at what pilots are making.The fact is that top paid pilots are paid extremely well. These guys have the most to lose if the company folds. Mechanics on the other hand may lose more through concessions than if the company folds.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I've NEVER heard pilots insist that ANYONE take a paycut. I hear lots of other groups (including AA mechanics, right Bob?) insist that pilots do so. You can bet one thing. Even if Dave goes back to the judge in order to cancel contracts PILOTS WILL STILL MAKE MORE THAN MECHANICS! That's the reality of the situation.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Sure... no one from the pilot's group told the mechanics to vote yes to their contracts.....
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On 10/22/2002 9:29:48 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/22/2002 9:01:24 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Bsdvr;
by the way, I never said pilots were overpaid. I said that pilots should not be telling mechanics to take pay cuts to save $300k a year pilots jobs.
ual727fo;
My intent is not to put the pilots against the mechanics. I just dont like it when top paid pilots, who may very well decerve every penny they get, get scared by management and tell mechanics that they should accept pay cuts. They should stay out of it. But if they are going into what mechanics should accept as compensation then they shouldnt get upset when mechanics start to look at what pilots are making.The fact is that top paid pilots are paid extremely well. These guys have the most to lose if the company folds. Mechanics on the other hand may lose more through concessions than if the company folds.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I've NEVER heard pilots insist that ANYONE take a paycut. I hear lots of other groups (including AA mechanics, right Bob?) insist that pilots do so. You can bet one thing. Even if Dave goes back to the judge in order to cancel contracts PILOTS WILL STILL MAKE MORE THAN MECHANICS! That's the reality of the situation.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Sure... no one from the pilot's group told the mechanics to vote yes to their contracts.....
autofixer
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This entire conversation is childish and shows how spoiled airline employees really are. No-one deserves a penny! Just who do you think you are to believe that you do? You get what you negotiate, based on your level of qualification...period. If you don't like it, tough; that is the way the world REALLY is. I am leaving my job as pilot to persue my real dream and go into business. I do not want to spend half of my life in dirty hotel rooms anymore. I don't want to be stripped searched by government agents anymore. I don't want to be away from my family for the entire 24 hour period of every major holiday--as I have been for the last 15.5 years here and 8 years prior to that in the military. I certainly will not do it for 50% less than I was doing it last year. If you do not like the fact that pilots make 6 figures (eventually),tough! You should have thought about that when you were sitting on the street corner drinking beer with your high-school buddies, bad mouthing everyone...Oh, just like you are doing now! I have little tolerance for you cry babies any more. Get a life! The hammer is about to come down on you and you are about to find out what you are really worth.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/21/2002 9:42:34 PM pitguy wrote:
Busdrvr,
You said it perfectly and that is why you should vote 'yes' to more give backs for the pilots. You must save the company. I would say $65,000 for the lower captain and $100,000 for a senior 767 captain should be enough to stave off the competition. The real competition for you will most likely be the new RJ pilots since they can fly your routes easily.
The ENTIRE active pilot payrole at UAL is just over 1.5 billion a year. That INCLUDES benefits. To achieve the level of savings UAL wants, all the pilots would have to work for free. So NO that much of a savings per pilot WOULD NOT be enough. We're in this together, like it or not. BTW the new RJ pilots bring with them thier own MX.
When you stated:
"He'd spent the prior 15-20 years going to college, then working his way up through the ranks of civilian aviation or the military."
Man you must have one heck of a degree or a slow learner. My fathers heart surgeon only spent 10 years in college.
I consider english my second language. The 15 years I refer to is the toatl time getting qualified which includes college and gaining experience.
----------------
[/blockquote]
----------------
On 10/21/2002 9:42:34 PM pitguy wrote:
Busdrvr,
You said it perfectly and that is why you should vote 'yes' to more give backs for the pilots. You must save the company. I would say $65,000 for the lower captain and $100,000 for a senior 767 captain should be enough to stave off the competition. The real competition for you will most likely be the new RJ pilots since they can fly your routes easily.
The ENTIRE active pilot payrole at UAL is just over 1.5 billion a year. That INCLUDES benefits. To achieve the level of savings UAL wants, all the pilots would have to work for free. So NO that much of a savings per pilot WOULD NOT be enough. We're in this together, like it or not. BTW the new RJ pilots bring with them thier own MX.
When you stated:
"He'd spent the prior 15-20 years going to college, then working his way up through the ranks of civilian aviation or the military."
Man you must have one heck of a degree or a slow learner. My fathers heart surgeon only spent 10 years in college.
I consider english my second language. The 15 years I refer to is the toatl time getting qualified which includes college and gaining experience.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Look, I was not talking down to Pilots, nor was I suggesting that they should take a paycut. If I was a pilot I wouldn't.
I just asked an honest question as to if a pilot was asked to give up another 10% to make it about 50% cut in all, then do you think US AIRWAYS would be successful in pulling it off?
And please see my new post with updated info titled, update on further concessions.
I just asked an honest question as to if a pilot was asked to give up another 10% to make it about 50% cut in all, then do you think US AIRWAYS would be successful in pulling it off?
And please see my new post with updated info titled, update on further concessions.
