Your as bad as O about blaming others for your misfortune. There were some recommending a no vote on the 2001 t/a. Was it their fault the terrorists struck on 9/11? That's the same absurd logic your applying. As you and your team continue your mission of character assassination know this, in the end nobody cares.
Here Comes the 'term sheet"
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Unlike those bk's, aa is the only one in this process right NOW. They are ALL waiting for this shoe to drop and will do everything to steal our revenue pure and simple. At the time that they were in ch-11 they were too busy worrying about their own immediate future and the competition was not waiting at the end of the jet bridge with a better offer. This is the risk that that the aa cheerleaders don't seem to appreciate. Overnight, the revenue has a very real possibility of walking away for good, and once that happens, it's over. UA and DL will do everything possible and then some to be sure that once these term sheets are imposed our revenue will have every reason to walk away from aa. You don't think they will be watching every mech. delay, every cancellation, every complaint of poor onboard service to steal the f/c and b/c revenue?
That's a judgement call to be made by judge sean lane. If anyone can discern his leanings from this have at it. He's only made 9 decisions so far.
No, at the end of the day this is not the early 2000's with everyone going into and exiting bk. All eyes are on aa's revenue stream and those companies are extraordinarily well positioned to make sure we DO NOT make it out.
That's an excellent point, and simillar to the points that WT has posted here at least a couple dozen times in the past four months. The good news for AA is that UA has angered a lot of its frequent flyers over the past three weeks since UA switched its computer systems over to Shares (PMCO) from whatever PMUA used to employ. If the meltdowns continue for a few more weeks, then the Spring from Hell at UA may help AA (and will probably help DL).
And the lawyers representing the APA, APFA and TWU are experts in labor law and will be able to argue an absence of good faith negotiations if that's indeed the case. If there's one thing that judges hate, it's being reversed by a higher court. That motivates judges to get it right when they make rulings. Judge Lane's rulings are subject to review by the District Court as well as the Court of Appeals. If employees take the position that the courts never rule in favor of the working man and that they're all crooked (as Owens has previously posted), then there's no point to discussion and the unions should dismiss their expensive lawyers. The employees will always lose. OTOH, some of us still believe in the integrity of the courts. Under that viewpoint, one side or the other will win and the other will lose - but the outcome is not pre-ordained. In 1113 motions, the debtor usually wins.
IIRC, when NW imposed their contract changes on their FA's, the FA's were not allowed to take any action, strike or otherwise.
My question is, if AA breaks the contracts, and the unions are not allowed to strike during bankruptcy, could they strike immediately upon exiting bankrupcty?
My question is, if AA breaks the contracts, and the unions are not allowed to strike during bankruptcy, could they strike immediately upon exiting bankrupcty?
Under the NW AFA Court of Appeals ruling, the answer would be "no," because the parties had not reached the point where self-help is permissible under the RLA. They hadn't been released and no 30 day cooling off period had run. So no right to strike.
strikeforce
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- Jan 18, 2011
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you still have the right to wildcat......at any time!
strikeforce
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why wait til next week?? I mean, aren't the unions right there at Flagship U?? why doesn't he tell them?? It's not like WE have any influence over the TWU INTL. Hell, WE can't even find Little, Videtich, Gless and the other stooges.
Unless, this is all staged and WE will see a T/A on the 11th hour of the 29th day??? isn't that right Informer?
Definition of Major Dispute. Major disputes involve the creation or changing of collective bargaining agreements on rates of pay, work rules and working conditions, and are subject to conciliation procedures that are purposely long and drawn-out. Unlike other industries, collective bargaining agreements under the RLA do not expire on certain dates, but remain in full force and effect until changed in accordance with the procedures of the RLA.
Is self-help allowable and available to the parties after they have exhausted the major dispute resolution procedures. Are strikes allow over major disputes
WorldTraveler
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- Dec 5, 2003
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actually, I've been saying for close to a couple years that AA faced a huge risk by being the only carrier in BK ... and the risk level certainly hasn't diminished.
TO your point about UA, however, they have had several high profile operational meltdowns and they aren't just related to a new/transitioned res system. several of these incidents have involved maintenance issues, lack of or slow availability of backup aircraft, and minimal staffing to recover from some nasty IROPs - issues which frontline people have very little control over.
And it also highlights that UA might be cutting very deeply in order to keep its costs down -and in so doing are sacrificing the operation and the necessary staffing. DL's operational performance sank after the merger in part because they cut staffing too deeply but they have recovered.
To Arpey's credit, he realized that AA's biggest salvation in all of this might be that AA's competitors (and primarily UA) would have dramatic increases in costs which would make it easier to justify AA's costs.
Now that AA has the ability to dramatically cut its labor costs, UA has got to be very concerned about the position they will end up w/ respect to labor costs, esp. since they haven't even begun to address most of the labor integration issues. Things could get very messy at UA, esp. if they have to cut deep in order to afford the labor rates their employees expect them to pay in order to merge the two airlines. Compound that by the fact that UA's RASM changes in the most recent months have fallen dramatically and UA could be facing some serious headwinds.
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All of this also highlights that AA and UA have had a decades-long rivalry that has been marked by one of the two often benefitting at the other's expense - rarely have both been "up" at the same time. And the size of the industry controlled by the two continues to be eroded by competitors.
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So, yes, AA could benefit in the short-term by UA's problems - and long-term the best thing that could happen to AA might be that UA stumbles very badly in the labor integration process and sees its costs go up. Hard to imagine how it all might play out but it very well could mean the back and forth of AA-UA might take another pivotal turn.
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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I'm not taking swipes at you guys. I'm taking swipes at your union leaders -- the blowhards who promised you "restitution & more" and retro. In the case of the TWU, they've failed you repeatedly, by some accounts since 1983.
And yet, you & your peers keep them in power.
This bankruptcy was perhaps unavoidable as far as cleaning up the balance sheet goes, but I'm still a believer that the term sheets could have been averted.
It's unfortunate that nobody, and that includes Arpey et al, was willing to make the tough call in 2003, and nobody had the guts to do anything about it until now.
Y'all have spent the last eight years in denial, worrying about minutae like executive compensation, instead of facing the fact that AA was now the fattest kid on the block.
Bankruptcy is your intervention. Your detox. If you don't get your collective crap together now, it's all over, guys.
This isn't 2003-2005. It's much worse. Jetblue was still growing at the time, and so was Southwest. They're done growing for a while... they may even wind up contracting a bit if fuel prices don't abate.
If you're OK walking away from your house & starting out at the bottom all over again somewhere else, great. You'd better buy something first, because it will be a long three to seven years renting while you wait for a foreclosure to clear from your credit.
Burning it to the ground might sound great, but it's really not going to affect the guys in senior management -- we've already seen Del Valle getting a job with G2 within days of his forced retirement, and Arpey had a job lined up before he resigned. The rest of them will find something or probably have enough of a cushion to float for a while.
The rest of HDQ doesn't have that luxury. There are thousands of analysts, programmers, etc. who never played a part of your grievances against management. Some I worked for, some I hired & promoted. There are dozens for whom we shared weddings, funerals, birthday parties for our kids...
They're effectively screwed, especially those who spent their whole adult life working at an airline, and really don't know a whole lot else. They'll eventually find something, but it will come nowhere close to a replacement income, even post 2003 pay-cuts.
So yes, I'm taking swipes.
It's because I'm pissed.
This isn't just happening to a bunch of faceless people -- this is happening to close friends.
You guys have had plenty of chances, and you've all been too bitter about trying to settle grievances from the past, instead of making sure y'all had jobs five years from know.
It took both sides working really hard against each other to fully and truly f**k up the airline Crandall built.
As I said, this is your one chance at detox & intervention.
And instead of trying to look out for what you need five years from now, you've got the union leaders engaging in delay tactics, and apparently still living in the same type of denial that some on this board exhibited up until the point the company actually called their bluff & filed Chapter 11.
Until the union leaders start acting like adults and facing the seriousness of the situation, I'll continue to be pissed.
AAOHNO
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- Sep 6, 2008
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If we have thousands of these types of workers, as you just stated, then why do we need outside consultants?
Very well said Eric. It's a shame the unions are not ready to reset and go forward. I understand for a union leader it is next to impossible to "consent" to what the company needs and sell that to your members, and I believe the company understands that too. I think that is why APA Bates said something to the effect that "sometimes it is just easier to have a solution imposed only than to negotiate it". Believe me everyone is loosing on this deal. I am in disbelief though the unions have not taken on the most onerous elements and made the best of them, so that when the contract is abrogated, and it will be, you'll all come out with a better deal than you would have otherwise. They are wasting valuable time and your money by not getting down to business. Perhaps more is going on than what I hear, but it seams like they are just spinning there wheels paying lists of legal expenses and not getting anything done, meanwhile the clock is ticking loudly.
AA still has a deep talent pool and if given the chance to exit will come out of C11 a terrific competitor and will most likely grow back to nearly what it once was within a few short years. Believe me Delta, UAL, SWA and LCC DO NOT want to see that. The longer it takes to get on with it though, the less likely AA exits independently or at all.
AA still has a deep talent pool and if given the chance to exit will come out of C11 a terrific competitor and will most likely grow back to nearly what it once was within a few short years. Believe me Delta, UAL, SWA and LCC DO NOT want to see that. The longer it takes to get on with it though, the less likely AA exits independently or at all.
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The TWU International appears to be an outside consultant. If we have thousands of these workers, then why do we need the outside consulting.
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