Have Unions Outlived their Relevance?

[Zephyr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/6/2003 8:37:06 PM Hubturn wrote:

Zep doesn't have a clue as to what efforts were made to get to the majors, however, he may be on to one point, unknowingly. Maybe it is FINALLY time for a national contract.
----------------
[/blockquote]

The best thing I ever heard a chief pilot say was, "No body likes a major airline pilot. They all think you don't have to work and they think you get paid too much. Don't bother to try to change their mind. Your mother is the only one that is on your side."

He was right. Hell, even a "junior" major airline pilot cannot get the support of the "senior" airline pilot. ALPA is not a union; it is a 51% club. And as long as it remains so, many more thousands of ALPA pilots will leave the Majors for the regional. Or hell, just stay at US Air, Austin has brought the regionals to you!

So what is the hire date of the most junior guy at US Air? And what will it be 6 months from now?

 

[enduro]

As far as the company not happy till we pay to work there,TOO LATE. Allegheny just sent me a bill for retro concessions that was never disscussed in our TA that was forced down our throats by the IBT. This industry stinks!

 

[Zephyr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/6/2003 9:09:11 PM Walmartgreeter wrote:

fast neat average good good good
----------------
[/blockquote]




You have failed authentication.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

Zepher wrote:
So what is the hire date of the most junior guy at US Air? And what will it be 6 months from now?

-------

Last I could keep up with, the newbie at the bottom of the list was hired in 1988.

To answer your next question........US Who??!??? Didnt they used to fly around the same time as Eastern? Or was that Braniff??? PanAm?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Hey, the fact that you noticed made it worth the omission! 78.

 

[JetTroop]

Don't come to North or South Carolina or for that matter, many southern states. You wouldn't like it here. You see, we are "at will" states. Meaning you work at the will of the employer.

Here are just a couple lovely highlights straight from the [a href="http://www.llr.state.sc.us/AboutUs/index.asp?file=FAQ.HTM" target="_blank"]SC Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation [/a]:

Q. Does my employer have to provide me with breaks and time for lunch during the work day?
A. There is no requirement under South Carolina law for an employer to provide employees with breaks or a lunch period.

Q. Does my employer have to provide me with paid vacation and/or sick time?
A. No.

Q. Who do I contact if I feel as though I was terminated unfairly?
A. Due to South Carolina being an employment at will state, you will need to contact an attorney, or if you feel you were discriminated against due to race, age, sex, handicap, national origin, and/or religion, you may contact the South Carolina Human Affairs Commission.
(This last one used to say that in South Carolina the employer could fire for no reason, a good reason or a bad reason, as long as it wasn't discrimination. In fact, the site just changed that in the past month)

So you see, we have it bad down here but most of us still get vacation, sick days, breaks, lunches..and oddly don't have a union.

Now I’m not anti-union at all but I am anti-people who think that if you don’t have a union, you’re too stupid to get one or join one or you’re getting screwed. There are good points and bad points to unions and no unions. I know far too many people who are union members and have more strife, stress and heartache from work than I'll ever know. I work hard, get paid well and go home.

It's not to say all unions are bad or that even most are…but not being a member of a union is quite alright as well. To each his own.

 

[Zephyr]

89...and still kicking. I think it was more fun there than at US Air! At least we had spirit missions!

[b]A FLIGHT OVER HERE PLEASE SIR![/b]

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Lavman,
I had all of that and more until the iam showed up. They are the ones that agreed to give up what we had left, without us getting any say so in the matters. The worst thing that the iam did to us is not getting us our hire date seniority. That is why we have senior people on the street while there are junior people still working. One other thing of major importance is that each time the iam accepts a paycut for us, they raise our dues.

 

[LavMan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 12:25:53 AM Ramp Rogue wrote:

Lavman,
I had all of that and more until the iam showed up. They are the ones that agreed to give up what we had left, without us getting any say so in the matters. The worst thing that the iam did to us is not getting us our hire date seniority. That is why we have senior people on the street while there are junior people still working. One other thing of major importance is that each time the iam accepts a paycut for us, they raise our dues. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/7.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
The ramp had PDOs, you did not have sick time, vacation, OI, a pension, a grievance procedure, you had no scope language as the contracting out of mail, frieght, catering, loss of express work and you had a PPG that the company could change at anytime.

For dues, I know in CLT, dues for everyone, M&R and Fleet were reduced.

 

[delldude]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 12:25:53 AM Ramp Rogue wrote:

Lavman,
I had all of that and more until the iam showed up. They are the ones that agreed to give up what we had left, without us getting any say so in the matters. The worst thing that the iam did to us is not getting us our hire date seniority. That is why we have senior people on the street while there are junior people still working. One other thing of major importance is that each time the iam accepts a paycut for us, they raise our dues. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/7.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY,YOU GUYS VOTED THEM IN AFTER FAILING TO GET ENOUGH VOTES FOR A UNION BEFORE THAT.SOUNDS LIKE YOU SHOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT .AND NOW YOU COMPLAIN?WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IN YOUR FIRST CONTRACT?THE FINEST CONTRACT IN THE INDUSTRY?YOU SHOULD BE LUCKY YOU DID MUSTER ENOUGH FOR A UNION THE SECOND TIME

 

[LavMan]

Dell, it took them four differant elections to vote in a union.

 

[Hubturn]

Zep,
In this and other threads you comment on the 51% club. Unless I am misreading you, you are referring to the theory, "Take care of the senior guys as someday you will be one." I disagree with claims that this has been happening in the recent past. Of note is the acquiescence of ALPA to the ground swell for the no furlough clause. I opposed this in the belief that you are out of options if the company comes to you and says, "Unless we furlough, we're closing the doors." Therefore, if you negotiated (gave) anything away for this clause you just gave the company a freebie. I don't know what we negotiated away for that, but that is just what has happened. In hindsight, it would have been better to have negotiate an improved furlough package (insurance, benefits etc)than the false security of a no furlough clause. Specifically, wasn't the no furlough clause in place for the most junior members of the group? Based on that, and if I understand your meaning correctly, I disagree with your 51% issue.

 

[sabre]

at least one published report on The_mechanic web site said that some union officials of the IAM were mentioned as a suit against by IAM members at United regarding the ESOP.
They have attorney berman who filed the suit. Yes, the same berman who won big settlements against Enron, Exxon Valdez, and tobacco Giants.

To answer the question on this thread starter, the IAM has outlived itself and is falling apart in every industry.

 

[Zephyr]

Hubturn,

You might be surprised to know that I absolutely agree that a no furlough clause is a self-defeating concept. As you say it is just a freebee to the company. Unions pay for a promise from Mgt. Pilots have a slow learning curve. But I guess it makes for a security blanket for some.

As for the 51% club, it is not an ALPA concept. It is the ploy of the Mgt. Even though ALPA has had good (but diminishing) contracts, Mgt has been able to get ALPA to abandon their contracts by getting 51% to capitulate. (and in case we haven’t noticed the main goal of getting rid of the contracts is to flood the route structure with sweatshop planes while still charging customers to ride on “mainlineâ€￾)

It is a land grab pure and simple.

Furloughs are necessary in a cyclical industry and should be allowed to help a company roll with the punches (and allow the pilots still there to get paid without the no furlough discount rate). But clearly what is happening now at all the airlines has gone way beyond normal cycles.

In case we forget, the express type carriers are hiring and expanding while mainline pilots are on furlough and watching the routes be flown by regionals. (Yet customers are still flying “Mainlineâ€￾ and not benefiting from the discount costs, or making $35 million dollars either.)

If the union situation is not fixed, the next major land grab will be cabotage (and I would not expect customers to receive any discounts when that happens either).

Cabotage... And it will only take a 51% club to win, or loose if you prefer.

In the meantime, before cabotage, we can learn something from the trucking industry. CF has closed its doors and now the other big trucking companies have more freight than they can shake a stick at. The airline industry (regionals and mainline) would benefit from one Major(with its associated regionals) taking a dive for the team. And I would say that puts Delta in the catbird seat over at ALPA National.

I am afraid that US Air may find itself to be a part of the 49% club on that question. Will it happen? I hope not!

Zephyr

P.S. A union is obviously necessary. But in their zeal to collect the most amount of dues that they can, they seem to have lost all perspective of what the battle is about.

 

[Hubturn]

Zephyr,
Nice post, I get your message now.