Gordos Rant

[Taipan]

United's competitors — irritated for years at how United, an employee-owned airline, has been run — argue that Washington should do nothing to help the carrier avoid a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing that they argue is just the medicine it needs.
This is survival for us, said Gordon M. Bethune, Continental's chief executive, who has led the rivals' charge. This is not a game. This is not a boys' club. All of us are dying.
Earlier this week, Mr. Bethune, calling United's management clueless, circulated a financial analysis by Continental saying that United, even with taxpayer backing, would run out of cash by early 2004. United executives quickly denied that, accusing Continental of making faulty assumptions about its finances.
But Mr. Bethune, whose airline went into bankruptcy protection twice before finally emerging in 1993, said that loan guarantees for United would reward a badly managed company that had not sold off valuable routes or made deep cuts like other struggling airlines.
Look at Eastern, T.W.A., Braniff, Pan Am and what they tried to do to stay in business, he said in an interview. United isn't too big to fail. They'll just make a bigger hole when they hit the ground.
Sorry Gordo your not Carty

 

[ForkTime2002]

[STRONG][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]How'd CAL get access to the UAL submission anyway?[BR][BR][BR]
[H2]United and Union Near Deal[/H2][/NYT_HEADLINE][NYT_BYLINE type=" " version="1.0"][FONT size=-1][STRONG]By MICHELINE MAYNARD[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR][/NYT_BYLINE][!--plsfield:TEXT--][NYT_TEXT]
[P]HICAGO, Dec. 2 - United Airlines, struggling to stay out of bankruptcy court, reached a tentative agreement with its machinists' union today on a revised package of concessions in place of one that the workers turned down last week. [/P]
[P]The union's membership will vote on the modified terms on Thursday, and United, a unit of the UALcoei Corporation, said it would take advantage of a grace period that would allow it more time to make a crucial debt payment that had been due today. [/P][!--Middle ad type : skyscraper --]







[P]But a campaign by rival airlines opposed to federal loan guarantees for United continued, with Continental setting forth a gloomy outlook for United's future. [/P]
[P]The union that represents the 13,000 United mechanics, the International Association of Machinists, said its members would vote on $700 million in wage and benefit cuts. Though the package has the same economic value as the one that workers rejected last week, the proposal was changed to address concerns about workplace issues and lost vacation time. [/P]
[P]Separately, the airline said it was taking advantage of the grace period on a $375 million loan backed by aircraft. United said it had delayed the payment, which will now be due on Dec. 16, to wait for a response on its application for $1.8 billion in federal loan guarantees, which it is seeking in hopes of avoiding a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. [/P]
[P]Investors reacted positively to the developments, lifting the price of UAL shares by 77 cents, or 30 percent, to $3.28. The stock regained the ground it lost on Friday, when investors sold after the mechanics voted to reject the first set of terms. [/P]
[P]But United's competitors, which have opposed the bid for loan guarantees, gave the airline no rest in their campaign to defeat its application. In the latest of a series of documents meant to raise doubts about United's business plan, Continental today released a gloomy outlook for United's financial performance. [/P]
[P]The forecast, which Continental said was based on the business plan that United submitted to the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, contended that even if United received approval for the loan guarantees, it would run out of cash by the first quarter of 2004 and remain in a negative cash position through the end of 2004. [/P]
[P]Continental's document also rebutted United's contention that it would return to an operating profit in 2004 and begin repaying the loans in 2005. According to Continental's calculations, United's operations would be unprofitable in every quarter between now and the end of 2004. [/P]
[P]Continental argued that United's smallest quarterly operating loss, even after receiving loan guarantees, would be $231 million in the third quarter of 2004. It predicted that the losses would swell again by the end of 2004, presumably making it impossible to repay the loans. The analysis did not include the effects of a war with Iraq, which some analysts say could be devastating for the airline industry, depending on its length and severity. [/P]
[P]Gordon M. Bethune, Continental's chief executive, said in an interview today that the analysis showed that United's restructuring plan was inherently flawed. ``The concessions themselves are not enough for United to be a viable company,'' Mr. Bethune said by telephone from Houston. ``The taxpayers are going to lose this money. All of it will be gone. They do not have a plan that will work.'' [/P]
[P]Mr. Bethune, whose airline sought bankruptcy protection in 1983 and 1990 before emerging from Chapter 11 in 1993, said no bank would lend money to United based on the business plan it had presented to the loan board. He was sharply critical of United's management, including its chief executive, Glenn F. Tilton, who joined UAL in September after serving as vice chairman of ChevronTexaco. ``These guys are in disarray,'' Mr. Bethune said. ``They don't know what they're doing, and you have a C.E.O. who is clueless as to the machinations of the industry.'' [/P]
[P]United's chief financial officer, Frederic F. Brace III, vigorously defended the ability of United's management team and said that Continental's assumptions about its finances were incorrect. Mr. Brace said today that Continental had not taken into account the full effect of concessions that United would receive up front from its employees. He also said Continental was being far too pessimistic in its predictions of the airline's future revenue.. [BR][BR][/P]
[H3]United and Union Near Deal[/H3][!--plsfield:TEXT--][NYT_TEXT]
[P][FONT size=-1](Page 2 of 2)[/FONT]
[P]
[P]
[P]``Any financial person with any degree of competence can make numbers say whatever they want them to say,'' Mr. Brace said in an interview. ``We think their analysis is flawed and would not stand up to scrutiny'' by the loan guarantee board. [/P]
[P]The board is expected to meet later this week to consider United's application, which was originally filed in June and has since been revised because of a series of questions by the board's three voting members and its staff about the viability of United's business plan. [/P][!--Middle ad type : bigad --][/FONT][/STRONG]

 

[ForkTime2002]

[STRONG][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]How'd CAL get access to the UAL submission anyway?[BR][BR][BR]
[H2]United and Union Near Deal[/H2][/NYT_HEADLINE][NYT_BYLINE type=" " version="1.0"][FONT size=-1][STRONG]By MICHELINE MAYNARD[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR][/NYT_BYLINE][!--plsfield:TEXT--][NYT_TEXT]
[P]HICAGO, Dec. 2 - United Airlines, struggling to stay out of bankruptcy court, reached a tentative agreement with its machinists' union today on a revised package of concessions in place of one that the workers turned down last week. [/P]
[P]The union's membership will vote on the modified terms on Thursday, and United, a unit of the UALcoei Corporation, said it would take advantage of a grace period that would allow it more time to make a crucial debt payment that had been due today. [/P][!--Middle ad type : skyscraper --]







[P]But a campaign by rival airlines opposed to federal loan guarantees for United continued, with Continental setting forth a gloomy outlook for United's future. [/P]
[P]The union that represents the 13,000 United mechanics, the International Association of Machinists, said its members would vote on $700 million in wage and benefit cuts. Though the package has the same economic value as the one that workers rejected last week, the proposal was changed to address concerns about workplace issues and lost vacation time. [/P]
[P]Separately, the airline said it was taking advantage of the grace period on a $375 million loan backed by aircraft. United said it had delayed the payment, which will now be due on Dec. 16, to wait for a response on its application for $1.8 billion in federal loan guarantees, which it is seeking in hopes of avoiding a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. [/P]
[P]Investors reacted positively to the developments, lifting the price of UAL shares by 77 cents, or 30 percent, to $3.28. The stock regained the ground it lost on Friday, when investors sold after the mechanics voted to reject the first set of terms. [/P]
[P]But United's competitors, which have opposed the bid for loan guarantees, gave the airline no rest in their campaign to defeat its application. In the latest of a series of documents meant to raise doubts about United's business plan, Continental today released a gloomy outlook for United's financial performance. [/P]
[P]The forecast, which Continental said was based on the business plan that United submitted to the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, contended that even if United received approval for the loan guarantees, it would run out of cash by the first quarter of 2004 and remain in a negative cash position through the end of 2004. [/P]
[P]Continental's document also rebutted United's contention that it would return to an operating profit in 2004 and begin repaying the loans in 2005. According to Continental's calculations, United's operations would be unprofitable in every quarter between now and the end of 2004. [/P]
[P]Continental argued that United's smallest quarterly operating loss, even after receiving loan guarantees, would be $231 million in the third quarter of 2004. It predicted that the losses would swell again by the end of 2004, presumably making it impossible to repay the loans. The analysis did not include the effects of a war with Iraq, which some analysts say could be devastating for the airline industry, depending on its length and severity. [/P]
[P]Gordon M. Bethune, Continental's chief executive, said in an interview today that the analysis showed that United's restructuring plan was inherently flawed. ``The concessions themselves are not enough for United to be a viable company,'' Mr. Bethune said by telephone from Houston. ``The taxpayers are going to lose this money. All of it will be gone. They do not have a plan that will work.'' [/P]
[P]Mr. Bethune, whose airline sought bankruptcy protection in 1983 and 1990 before emerging from Chapter 11 in 1993, said no bank would lend money to United based on the business plan it had presented to the loan board. He was sharply critical of United's management, including its chief executive, Glenn F. Tilton, who joined UAL in September after serving as vice chairman of ChevronTexaco. ``These guys are in disarray,'' Mr. Bethune said. ``They don't know what they're doing, and you have a C.E.O. who is clueless as to the machinations of the industry.'' [/P]
[P]United's chief financial officer, Frederic F. Brace III, vigorously defended the ability of United's management team and said that Continental's assumptions about its finances were incorrect. Mr. Brace said today that Continental had not taken into account the full effect of concessions that United would receive up front from its employees. He also said Continental was being far too pessimistic in its predictions of the airline's future revenue.. [BR][BR][/P]
[H3]United and Union Near Deal[/H3][!--plsfield:TEXT--][NYT_TEXT]
[P][FONT size=-1](Page 2 of 2)[/FONT]
[P]
[P]
[P]``Any financial person with any degree of competence can make numbers say whatever they want them to say,'' Mr. Brace said in an interview. ``We think their analysis is flawed and would not stand up to scrutiny'' by the loan guarantee board. [/P]
[P]The board is expected to meet later this week to consider United's application, which was originally filed in June and has since been revised because of a series of questions by the board's three voting members and its staff about the viability of United's business plan. [/P][!--Middle ad type : bigad --][/FONT][/STRONG]

 

[atabuy]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 11:34:47 PM Taipan wrote:

But Mr. Bethune, whose airline went into bankruptcy protection twice before finally emerging in 1993, said that loan guarantees for United would reward a badly managed company that had not sold off valuable routes or made deep cuts like other struggling airlines.

"Look at Eastern, T.W.A., Braniff, Pan Am and what they tried to do" to stay in business, he said in an interview. "United isn't too big to fail. They'll just make a bigger hole when they hit the ground."

----------------
[/blockquote]
Gordo is an idiot.
He gives examples of all the airlines that are out of business because they sold their routes or assets, and says Ual hasn't done this yet. He might just helped us get the loan.

 

[atabuy]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/3/2002 11:34:47 PM Taipan wrote:

But Mr. Bethune, whose airline went into bankruptcy protection twice before finally emerging in 1993, said that loan guarantees for United would reward a badly managed company that had not sold off valuable routes or made deep cuts like other struggling airlines.

"Look at Eastern, T.W.A., Braniff, Pan Am and what they tried to do" to stay in business, he said in an interview. "United isn't too big to fail. They'll just make a bigger hole when they hit the ground."

----------------
[/blockquote]
Gordo is an idiot.
He gives examples of all the airlines that are out of business because they sold their routes or assets, and says Ual hasn't done this yet. He might just helped us get the loan.

 

[G4G5]

That was his point, they all had to sell their assets because they (Pan Am, Eastern, yada yada) were not given a bail out with tax payer money.[BR][BR]Remember how you got LHR and the Pacific?

 

[G4G5]

That was his point, they all had to sell their assets because they (Pan Am, Eastern, yada yada) were not given a bail out with tax payer money.[BR][BR]Remember how you got LHR and the Pacific?

 

[hmflyer]

Northwest, Delta and American have also been actively campaigning against loan guarantees for UAL. Gordon is just now getting vocal about it since the decision will soon be made.

 

[hmflyer]

Northwest, Delta and American have also been actively campaigning against loan guarantees for UAL. Gordon is just now getting vocal about it since the decision will soon be made.

 

[Segue]

In the airline business, you are only as good as your dumbest competitor.

 

[Segue]

In the airline business, you are only as good as your dumbest competitor.

 

[ForkTime2002]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/4/2002 10:01:39 AM Segue wrote:
[P]In the airline business, you are only as good as your dumbest competitor. [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][STRONG][/STRONG][/P][STRONG][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]As strong as your weakest competitior.[/FONT][/STRONG]

 

[ForkTime2002]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/4/2002 10:01:39 AM Segue wrote:
[P]In the airline business, you are only as good as your dumbest competitor. [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][STRONG][/STRONG][/P][STRONG][FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3]As strong as your weakest competitior.[/FONT][/STRONG]