Gordo ah again

[N230UA]

[blockquote]
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On 9/24/2002 2:25:11 PM UnitedChicago wrote:

Remember the old president John Edwardson?
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[/blockquote]

I remember that sinking feeling I had when I first heard Edwardson was bowing out of the running. I knew 'RISING' couldn't be further from the truth at that point.

I'm a firm believer that had Edwardson taken the reigns, UA would have done things right. That includes good ideas (US combo, fract. jet subsidiary) that were executed poorly. Edwardson could have made these work.

What a sick, sad world.

 

[motnot]

Nothin will please me more than to prove this jack ass wrong.

He is wrong. AWA has no chance of going bankrupt for years.

 

[avek00]

UAL777flyer:

My point was not that Goodwin was an ineffectual leader, although he was indeed. At issue is the fact that, one year later, the people of United (mgmt. and worker alike) have not done enough to actually keep his prediction from coming to pass.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Avek,

You're absolutely correct. We've done nothing but waste the last year. We've done nothing substantial to improve ourselves. Maybe if we had had the sense of urgency that exists now a bit sooner, bankruptcy wouldn't be a possibility. However, because we've wasted so much time doing nothing, Ch.11 becomes more of a realistic possibility with each passing day. Years from now, they'll write books about the dysfunction and animosity so deeply entrenched at UA and the problems it caused. Hopefully, it'll be a turnaround story and not a eulogy.

 

[CRJ/CAPT]

Who are we kidding? The union's plan will be considered and then probably thrown out. And then the company will declare bankruptcy. We can hope all we want but we might as well prepare for the inevitable. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to be realistic.
Respectfully,
Steve

 

[motnot]

Well, the unions can't just suggest something and assume it will be implemented. To this point, they have failed to grasp just how precarious UAL's situation is.

So if the unions want to save the company, they will have to deliver a knockout proposal. Like it or not, that means huge cost cuts, especially for labor. And so far, there's no indication that one is coming.

 

[UAL777flyer]

CRJ,

While I think you could very well be right, there is a reason why I think their proposal might have some meat to it. The union leaders have been in constant communication with Tilton and Brace throughout this period. Their has been dialogue and information exchanged back and forth. So I think the company probably had a decent idea of where they were going with their proposal. While I'm sure the details included a few surprises, I'm convinced Tilton and Brace knew the general gist of the plan minus the specifics. So at least there's hope that it's in the framework of what is needed.

However, I remain convinced that the plan won't be enough and we'll declare bankruptcy. While I continue to hope that doesn't happen because it'll be a lot more painful than a voluntary restructuring, at least a bankruptcy filing would finally change the governance of the company which I believe is in the best short-term and long-term interests of the company, in my opinion.

 

[mancityfan]

Company provides a realistic number, unions get together to divvy up the required sacrifice, send the info back to the company, company takes it to ATSB OR (and don't be surprised to see this!) the capital markets, and the company gets the money they need to survive through the winter debt payment period.

Any other scenario includes the guy in the black dress, so let's hope the union coalition has come up with a reasonable package and not one where any one group cannot live with the ideas generated by their union leadership. The AFA is talking well of the deal and the AFL-CIO has even been involved to determine if they think the deal is fair, so hopefully, ALPA will not be carrying all the weight, IAM will get credit for the fact that they have about $500M already invested, and AFA will get a little credit for already being at industry parity.

Here's a deal that was floated to me by a friend:

1. Figure out how much is acceptable to stabilize the company and pay off the required debts.
2. Figure out what ALL the union groups wages would be at parity based on our peers at AMR and DAL.
3. Subtract the excess over parity being received by ANY employee group and subtract it from 1 above, including a credit for the retro pay owed to the IAM.
4. Figure out what the remaining dollar figure is and what percentage ACROSS THE BOARD it comes out to.
5. Make everyone's pay cuts equivalent to that percentage PLUS their share of any excess over parity that they receive after figuring out point 2 above.
6. The result should be an amount for the AFA that relates to the fact that they receive parity pay, an amount for the IAM that recognizes that they have already provided $500M of short term relief in the form of retro payments still on the books, and an amount that takes into account that ALPA members are slightly less well-paid than DAL and better paid than AMR.

So, whaddya think? Where is fairness NOT being applied?

ALPA ends up probably paying most, then IAM (although their credit for retro might not make it second), then AFA, who is always screaming about NOT having an ILC, but never about the price it cost the rest of us to get the ILC!

As for mgmt, they will probably agree to the proposal that was recently floated (and who wouldn't?!), as it is only a fraction over 7%, and they receive credit for no raises this year, AND they are supposed to get 2% raises every year! And all this only if they make OVER $30K per year!

I guess UAL concessions are also designed as a social welfare program, too. Yes, I know, family of four, living on $30K is not doing so great, but who told them to have a family of four with such poor earnings potential, who told them not to go to college to try and get ahead, etc.. etc..

mancityfan

 

[Rhino]

Mancity

So, whaddya think? Where is fairness NOT being applied?

You'll never get a consensus on what's fair.

AMR and DAL are bleeding profusely and their management is looking at huge cost reductions. Why would UAL management agree to a solution that isn't working at those carriers and wouldn't solve UAL's problems?

 

[JFK777]

Gordo may be a mouth but he is a very influencial one. His perdiction of BK for AWA and other will happen, folks another airline will go BK I don't know who but it will happen with this recession. UA's Employee-owners should take a wage cut for their own sake.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

I guess UAL concessions are also designed as a social welfare program, too. Yes, I know, family of four, living on $30K is not doing so great, but who told them to have a family of four with such poor earnings potential, who told them not to go to college to try and get ahead, etc.. etc..

mancityfan

Careful with the value judgements here, lest you be judged by your pocketbook. I know you really don't believe this comment sir.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 9/25/2002 2:52:20 PM mancityfan wrote:


I guess UAL concessions are also designed as a social welfare program, too. Yes, I know, family of four, living on $30K is not doing so great, but who told them to have a family of four with such poor earnings potential,

mancityfan
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[/blockquote]

Yeah, but who can afford prophylactics on $30K a year?

 

[mancityfan]

[blockquote]
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On 9/25/2002 552 PM whatkindoffreshhell wrote:

I guess UAL concessions are also designed as a social welfare program, too. Yes, I know, family of four, living on $30K is not doing so great, but who told them to have a family of four with such poor earnings potential, who told them not to go to college to try and get ahead, etc.. etc..

mancityfan

Careful with the value judgements here, lest you be judged by your pocketbook. I know you really don't believe this comment sir.
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[/blockquote]
What....

Au contraire, I meant every word of it!

I grew up getting Family Income Supplement from the British Government because we had 4 children and, after losing a job, we had insufficient income per Govt stats. However, the difference is that THAT was Govt assistance NOT Corporate assistance. I pay taxes on my largesse, and I paid $100K for the education that allows me to do what I do. I don't remeber ANYONE stepping forward over the last 10 years to pay my school loans, nor my mortgage, and let's just ignore the fact that my wife and I put off having children for 10 years until I had a job that could support OUR family.

I am all for helping people help THEMSELVES, with college loans, grants, etc.. but when I come to work, I do not expect to be told that unless I give 27% of MY hard earned salary the company will go bankrupt, BUT any employees with less than $30K income get a free ride! I already gave at the office to help save and create thousands of jobs, to the tune of $165K, and now I get to give more, for the same purpose, and others get a free ride?? When do they become accountable for their lot in life, and when do I get relieved of that burden? I just refinanced my house to save money and to avoid making other onerous cuts in my life, and it is going to cost me money over time. Where do I go to recoup that?

mancityfan

 

[UnitedChicago]

JFK777:

I don't think anyone would dispute that there could be more airline BK filings. Even my cat would make that assumption.

My beef is that Bethune spouts such obvious crap. I've never heard or read him say anything strategically intuitive or anything that I was like - wow, I hadn't thought of that. Or wow that man is sharp.

He's just a big mouth. And an ugly one at that.

 

[UAL777flyer]

Gordon merely enjoys over-inflating his ego by seeing his Mike Boyd-esque soundbytes in print or on the news. His style is such that when he makes his point, it's akin to a bull loose in a china shop.