Golden Handcuffs

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Bob Owens do you remember using the term "Golden Handcuffs" in relation to seniority?
 

Because it builds reliance and dependency on the company. People tend to be willing to give stuff up to preserve the Airline and the seniority they have acquired there. This is not as much of a factor in normal jobs where everyone works days with weekends and Holidays off, but in our industry Seniority means more than just layoff protection, it affects quality of life. The less dependent on AA and more portable you keep yourself the more likely you will be willing to not only fight to keep what you have but also demand more. I would rather see a restructure of the way we negotiate contracts that minimizes the importance of seniority without giving anything away such as substantial premiums for working weekends and odd shifts and to do away with all steps to top pay in the contract, when you get hired you are in the same boat as the next guy. We derive zero benefit from making a guy wait five to ten years to get up to our pay rates. Why have steps? Isn't the experienced mechanic who is hired off the street expected to work just as hard as the rest of us? The company gets to benefit from cheap labor that's all. We should structure our contracts to maximize pay and minimize the penalty from moving from one carrier to the next, portability gives us leverage at the bargaining table. If not for seniority how many of us would still be here at AA? I wouldn't. Seniority has forged Golden Handcuffs on us.

 
I am curious to know if your opinion has evolved. If you still believe as you did before, how would you implement minimizing the penalty of moving from one carrier to another?
 
I find it ironic that a UNION would have to take steps to initiate a benefit that every non UNION skilled worker gets by default.
 
I still feel seniority is a tool of manipulation and entrapment.
 
I guess people have to make a decision. Is it worth entrapment and erosion to have supposed job protection?
 
Complicated question indeed.

 

[UPNAWAY]

Seniority has most certainly evolved into an detriment not a benefit. You generally have defacto seniority in the non contract groups but without the handcuffs.

 

[700UW]

A CBA and a union that has seniority in the workplace cuts down on the kiss azzes like yourself and nepotism.
 
Its a fair based system vs being at the bosses mercy and being his or her pet.
 
But hey I just described you.

 

[eolesen]

Unfortunately, most CBA's do away with the kissass favoritism and nepotism you refer to and replace it with a different form of favoritism and nepotism, e.g. who gets non-elected jobs with the International, who serves on various committees and other non-productive work that qualifies for union business pay...

Anyone who says favoritism and patronage go away with an industrial union is probably already benefitting from it somehow.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

A CBA and a union that has seniority in the workplace cuts down on the kiss azzes like yourself and nepotism.
 
Its a fair based system vs being at the bosses mercy and being his or her pet.
 
But hey I just described you.

Are you referring to me or UPNAWAY?

 

[700UW]

UP

 

[Bob Owens]

Still feel the same way. Before small minded people try and spin what I wrote let me clarify that I don't want to do away with seniority but rather structure contracts to make it so it is what it was meant to be and nothing more.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Still feel the same way. Before small minded people try and spin what I wrote let me clarify that I don't want to do away with seniority but rather structure contracts to make it so it is what it was meant to be and nothing more.

From my perspective, and you said it yourself, people would not stay and suffer American Airlines B.S. if they had the freedom of mobility within the airline business without starting like a day one employee. American Airlines management knows this and uses it to shove ridiculous contracts down the throats of its employees. They know the majority of their talent is not going anywhere. 
 
American Airlines and the TWU sold the propaganda that employees should take cuts to "Save the Airline". How many of you would have taken cuts if you could have just gone to work for another carrier without the "golden handcuffs"? If a company cannot (and let's not bring up the obvious that the bankruptcy was a sham... I know) manage the cost of doing business then they don't need to be in business.
 
Consider the concessions you have given under the last two contracts as a "fee" you pay to keep your seniority intact. Thousands of dollars a year in pay and benefits is starting to sound like the company grocery store all over again. Is the cost worth it? 
 
Seniority coupled with the inability to strike has become a liability not an asset. 
 
How would you promote mitigating the penalties of moving from one carrier to another Bob? 
 

A CBA and a union that has seniority in the workplace cuts down on the kiss azzes like yourself and nepotism.

Crew chiefs play favorites all the time. Management turns a blind eye to favored employees all the time. If that does not happen where you work you are very, very fortunate. 
 

Its a fair based system vs being at the bosses mercy and being his or her pet.

Have you ever heard the term "They can do that brother"?
 
I have seen seniority bypassed time and time again. If you think seniority eliminates favoritism you need to join us here in Realityville.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

If you still believe as you did before, how would you implement minimizing the penalty of moving from one carrier to another?

 

How would you promote mitigating the penalties of moving from one carrier to another Bob? 

I thought I would bump this and await your answer. Third time is the charm.

 

[Bob Owens]

From my perspective, and you said it yourself, people would not stay and suffer American Airlines B.S. if they had the freedom of mobility within the airline business without starting like a day one employee. American Airlines management knows this and uses it to shove ridiculous contracts down the throats of its employees. They know the majority of their talent is not going anywhere. 
 
American Airlines and the TWU sold the propaganda that employees should take cuts to "Save the Airline". How many of you would have taken cuts if you could have just gone to work for another carrier without the "golden handcuffs"? If a company cannot (and let's not bring up the obvious that the bankruptcy was a sham... I know) manage the cost of doing business then they don't need to be in business.
 
Consider the concessions you have given under the last two contracts as a "fee" you pay to keep your seniority intact. Thousands of dollars a year in pay and benefits is starting to sound like the company grocery store all over again. Is the cost worth it? 
 
Seniority coupled with the inability to strike has become a liability not an asset. 
 
How would you promote mitigating the penalties of moving from one carrier to another Bob? 
 
 

Eliminate progressions, when you hire in you come at the rate that everyone gets. Everyone is in the same place, no divide and conquer.  Meaningful shift premiums for shifts and weekends. Saturdays paid at double time and Sundays paid at triple time, 10% afternoons and 25% midnight premiums. Holidays, all 11 of them paid at triple time. This is what the trades in NYC have had for years, they go from Job to job and seniority isnt something worth giving up a decent wage to save for them. If you want to earn more you pick less desirable shifts or days off. Senior guys whose kids are grown may choose to work the odd shifts for the money, junior guys may be screwed by only getting dayshift with weekends off but they get to watch their kids grow up and attend events that are normally planed around a 9 to 5 SS off schedule, still some senior guys would still choose to take days with weekends off so they match up with their wives who are working, the workforce would not be stratified by seniority. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well those are some good ideas Bob but, all you really gave me was a list of benefits, not a plan of implementation. 
 
The implementation is the tricky part.

 

[DallasConehead]

Eliminate progressions, when you hire in you come at the rate that everyone gets. Everyone is in the same place, no divide and conquer.  Meaningful shift premiums for shifts and weekends. Saturdays paid at double time and Sundays paid at triple time, 10% afternoons and 25% midnight premiums. Holidays, all 11 of them paid at triple time. This is what the trades in NYC have had for years, they go from Job to job and seniority isnt something worth giving up a decent wage to save for them. If you want to earn more you pick less desirable shifts or days off. Senior guys whose kids are grown may choose to work the odd shifts for the money, junior guys may be screwed by only getting dayshift with weekends off but they get to watch their kids grow up and attend events that are normally planed around a 9 to 5 SS off schedule, still some senior guys would still choose to take days with weekends off so they match up with their wives who are working, the workforce would not be stratified by seniority. 

 

Eliminate progressions, when you hire in you come at the rate that everyone gets. Everyone is in the same place, no divide and conquer.  Meaningful shift premiums for shifts and weekends. Saturdays paid at double time and Sundays paid at triple time, 10% afternoons and 25% midnight premiums. Holidays, all 11 of them paid at triple time. This is what the trades in NYC have had for years, they go from Job to job and seniority isnt something worth giving up a decent wage to save for them. If you want to earn more you pick less desirable shifts or days off. Senior guys whose kids are grown may choose to work the odd shifts for the money, junior guys may be screwed by only getting dayshift with weekends off but they get to watch their kids grow up and attend events that are normally planed around a 9 to 5 SS off schedule, still some senior guys would still choose to take days with weekends off so they match up with their wives who are working, the workforce would not be stratified by seniority. 

This is a great idea, unfortunately a pipe dream for us. It wont be initiated at even one airline.
 
Someting Wong with the website it put the quote twice and wont allow an edit to remove.