Game 7 For The Pilot Group

[phasersonstun2]

This is our game seven. The TA is the worst contract I have seen in my 27 years in this business.

The perceived battle here is the pilots vs the company. The real enemy here is TIME.

If the pilot group rejects this TA, a cascade of events will fall on us, some so swift and profound that no one will be able to stop them.

• Creditors will not wait around for the pilots or anyone else to turn down agreements many times over. The pilots have a lot of clout here, and probably the fate of the airline. A rejected TA will cast the pilot group in the role of doomsday makers, and the bankruptcy judge will grant the company any request to stave off liquidation.

But it would already be too late.

• A massive loss of bookings would ensue due to the inevitable negative press the airline will receive. Momentum would certainly take the airline into a liquidation not because of the rejected TA, but the effect it would have on outsiders.

I'm voting for survival.

 

[delldude]

don't bet on it
stop and think why they want to ram worsening offers down your thraoat time after time??
they can't do that if forced into neg's by the court...
get a set of balls and call their bluff...

 

[bobcat]

Survival? For how many MONTHS?

 

[ClueByFour]

• A massive loss of bookings would ensue due to the inevitable negative press the airline will receive. Momentum would certainly take the airline into a liquidation not because of the rejected TA, but the effect it would have on outsiders.

I'm voting for survival.

[post="192873"][/post]​

Most people in the general population already booked away as soon as they heard "bankruptcy."

They don't care about pilots, nor their constant penchant for bending over and taking another one just to keep a seat.

The airline is going to liquidate whether the pilots accept the TA or not (since those other pesky folks holding a license on the property will shut the joint down before accepting the same kind of contract the pilots are pondering).

 

[Walmartgreeter]

This is our game seven. The TA is the worst contract I have seen in my 27 years in this business.

The perceived battle here is the pilots vs the company. The real enemy here is TIME.


I'm voting for survival.

[post="192873"][/post]​

The REAL enemy is FEAR. Vote yes to calm youself, for what.......3 months. Good Luck. Greeter.

 

[delldude]

so according to the flyonthewall......the future of U lies in the hands of our esteemed pilots....educated,understanding men and women.our sole destiny can and will be soon decided and then and only then will the world see our plan unfold or cave in.
this makes me laugh....the climatic scene unfolds and people cower in fear of the choices to be made...not by a bunch of crazed maddened wrench twisting misfits...but by our rational , company oriented, loving pilots.... :mf_boff:

 

[cavalier]

so according to the flyonthewall......the future of U lies in the hands of our esteemed pilots....educated,understanding men and women.our sole destiny can and will be soon decided and then and only then will the world see our plan unfold or cave in.
this makes me laugh....the climatic scene unfolds and people cower in fear of the choices to be made...not by a bunch of crazed maddened wrench twisting misfits...but by our rational , company oriented, loving pilots.... :mf_boff:

[post="192917"][/post]​

Dude what they fail to report is that flying at 30K feet and above has a accumulative effect on ones thinking twisting it to believe that management is sent from heaven and the pain we are feeling is for our own benefit and if this pain wasn't necessary our loving management would never be inflicting it.

Like “flyâ€￾ tried using medical terms I will do that same here: It's like the cancer patient having all his extremities cut off to save his torso and his very life, painful, ugly, but this is for his own good otherwise such drastic measures would never be dreamed of with such a loving compassionate management team looking after our best interest.....This is not butchery but surgery to correct an ailment.

CLOSE THE DOORS and SPARE THE SUFFERING, it’s the humane thing to do.

Cavalier: seeing the whole unbiased picture

 

[delldude]

if you let us do this operation,we feel he will live for a couple of months on life support....

 

[BoeingBoy]

My two cents worth,

The game seven analogy assumes that each team (management vs pilots) have won three each.

By my count, this is game four and we (the pilots) are down 3-0.

The coach (GAG) is telling us "just throw one more game so we can get to game five". And by the way, "all that talk that there won't be a game five if we lose this one is misinformation being spread by those idiots that think we can win this game".

After all, the advisors who told us that losing game one would get us to game two were right, weren't they. When they told us that losing game two would get us to game three, they were right again. Likewise when they told us that losing game three would get us to game four. So far they're batting 1000.

Jim

 

[cavalier]

My two cents worth,

The game seven analogy assumes that each team (management vs pilots) have won three each.

By my count, this is game four and we (the pilots) are down 3-0.

The coach (GAG) is telling us "just throw one more game so we can get to game five". And by the way, "all that talk that there won't be a game five if we lose this one is misinformation being spread by those idiots that think we can win this game".

After all, the advisors who told us that losing game one would get us to game two were right, weren't they. When they told us that losing game two would get us to game three, they were right again. Likewise when they told us that losing game three would get us to game four. So far they're batting 1000.

Jim

[post="192937"][/post]​

Then decertify the union and every man for himself because that way the unions dues will be gone which doesn’t matter because all else is anyway….and here is the kicker… I AM DEAD SERIOUS

 

[BoeingBoy]

Then decertify the union and every man for himself because that way the unions dues will be gone which doesn’t matter because all else is anyway….and here is the kicker… I AM DEAD SERIOUS

[post="192942"][/post]​

Cav,

Not arguing against what you said one bit, but there is a middle ground.....

IF this company is around long enough, there could be a change in union leadership. Of course, I don't think that the company will be around long enough....

Jim

ps - having worked in both union and non-union shops (and as a pilot), I take the union shop despite all its faults. When all is said and done, though, the union is only as good as the leaders of that union.

 

[UseYourHead]

So Jim,

Are you advocating to vote no and hasten our demise so we can get it over with? If so, why do you continue to work here?

I clearly do not agree with this kind of thinking. While we are here shouldn't we be working in whatever ways we can to help the chances of survival? (as opposed to doing the opposite.

It is a fact that if we would not have done what we have done before we would not be here today...isn't that a no brainer?

Do you think that any future here is absolutly impossible? I disagree with that too. Yes, the odds are against us (they were against CAL too).

 

[BoeingBoy]

Are you advocating to vote no and hasten our demise so we can get it over with? If so, why do you continue to work here?

[post="192952"][/post]​

Yes and no respectfully. Your question implies that a "No" vote insures our demise, which I disagree with on two levels. One, our demise is (and has been for a while) assured since management kept waiting on employee concessions instead of fixing the airline. Two, you (mistakenly, I believe) imply that a no vote will result in our demise regardless of other circumstances. How's the "no TA and immediate liquidation" and "no ratification and no ATSB and immediate liquidation" theory coming?

As as for continuing to work here, as I said in another thread I wouldn't miss this soap opera for anything.

While we are here shouldn't we be working in whatever ways we can to help the chances of survival? (as opposed to doing the opposite.

[post="192952"][/post]​

Sounds good in the abstract....so how much of your paycheck have you been sending back to the company??? None??? You aren't "working in whatever ways" to help, then, are you???

It is a fact that if we would not have done what we have done before we would not be here today...isn't that a no brainer?

[post="192952"][/post]​

Well, only if you believe that concessions are the only ingredient in the recipe for survival. On the other hand, there is an equally plausible train of thought that if management had been forced to actually manage instead of being allowed to "take the easy way out", that we would have been better off today. The "give for our success" way has been tried several times - how's it worked out so far???

Do you think that any future here is absolutly impossible? I disagree with that too. Yes, the odds are against us (they were against CAL too).

[post="192952"][/post]​

Yes I do, but that is only my opinion. However, it is an opinion formed from much study and research. It's still only an opinion, however.

CAL, yes the odds were against them too. But if you look at when they began their recovery, they actually had many things going for them - including a booming economy, relatively low (and pretty steady) fuel prices, and a whole lot less LCC competition. None of those benefits are present to U.....

Jim

 

[UseYourHead]

Jim,

A No vote just really helps us along towards our demise, we can agree on that can't we?

Jim, we do not need to send back money individually; however, I can do what I can here to be a good team member and not go out of my way to screw to the company...for example burning sick-time.

I have never advocated that consessions only will save the company, rather that they are a necessary ingrediant at this point in time. (Just ask the BK judge...and oh ya, our advisors).

Jim are you positive on anything we have done in the last few years? Adding the island flying, or point to point US city pairs which now (and have) make up a significant % of our flying. How about the changes in Feb?, do you give any credit to those plans?

I agree with you that management will have to manage its way through this in addition to consessions, that too, is a no-brainer.

And as far as CAL goes, I used to work there and know the history well. All we can do is navigate through our own rough seas; however, I pointed that out to show that it can be done, even if the odds were against you. I wish that I was at CAL today, I would be a B777 Captain...when I left I never would have dreamed that I would make a statement like this.

We can do it too, by working together...IMHO.

 

[BoeingBoy]

A No vote just really helps us along towards our demise, we can agree on that can't we?

[post="192975"][/post]​

At this point in time, no we can't agree on that. Since I firmly believe that our demise is coming, I don't believe a "Yes" or "No" vote will make any difference to the outcome.

Jim, we do not need to send back money individually

[post="192975"][/post]​

Ahhh....so there is some individual sacrifice too great, even if it will help the company "survive". And therein lies a difference between us. You see, I was against the B scale - thought all pilots should be on the same pay scale, even if it meant a pay cut for those of us already on the property. Likewise the furloughs in 91. Likewise the furloughs post 9/11. I thought it was wrong to not give the former MetroJet pilots the new stock to replace their options lost in BK1 before doling out the remainder to everyone. You see, I believe that "give what we must, but make sure someone else pays a higher price than me" is wrong.

I have never advocated that consessions only will save the company, rather that they are a necessary ingrediant at this point in time. (Just ask the BK judge...and oh ya, our advisors).

[post="192975"][/post]​

The trouble with that is that "this point in time" keeps coming back - anyone have deja vu here??? Do I really need to mention Wolf's "parity + 1", pre-BK1, during BK1, DB plan, LOA 91??? Each of those were a "necessary ingrediant at this point in time" to save the company. Weren't those advisors advocating "this is necessary to save the company" each of those times??? Worked well, didn't they??? We've been "saved" right into BK1 and BK2. We'll soon be "saved" right into oblivion.

Jim are you positive on anything we have done in the last few years? Adding the island flying, or point to point US city pairs which now (and have) make up a significant % of our flying. How about the changes in Feb?, do you give any credit to those plans?

[post="192975"][/post]​

To be absolutely accurate, we haven't "added island flying", we've shifted flying from other domestic markets (and used RJ's as a substitued there). If we had "added island flying" (i.e. - growth) it would have been wonderful - growth lowers CASM. Likewise P2P flying was reduced post 9-11 and we are re-instuiting it by again moving flying from hub markets to P2P (and using RJ's to fill in the resulting gaps). Bringing back P2P flying is good, but it would have been better to not have cut it so much to start with.

The Feb changes? Too little way too late (plus, from the "fuzziness" of the info I'm still not convinced that this management can pull it off). If this had been done in Feb 2003 or Feb 2004, we wouldn't be in BK2. But back then, nobody wanted (or got a chance to cast a vote) to make management manage. Instead, it was "Live to fight another day" and management had an easy way out. Of course, that's what those adivsors said needed to be done....

I agree with you that management will have to manage its way through this in addition to consessions, that too, is a no-brainer.

[post="192975"][/post]​

Ah, management managing. Except for 2 or 3 people at the very top, don't we have the same management that got us here? And this round of concessions is going to make a difference when all the others didn't? I don't think so. In my opinion, we are no longer standing on the precipice, we are falling to the rocks below. Management had plenty of opportunities to stop our fall and didn't, despite the employees giving all that was asked. Now we will all pay the ultimate price for management's folly.

And as far as CAL goes, I used to work there and know the history well. All we can do is navigate through our own rough seas; however, I pointed that out to show that it can be done, even if the odds were against you. I wish that I was at CAL today, I would be a B777 Captain...when I left I never would have dreamed that I would make a statement like this.

[post="192975"][/post]​

Yes, it can be done. It could have been done here, but wasn't. Now we've run out of chances.

Jim

ps - I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the day that the pilots you left behind at CAL look over at you and think "Gee, I should have followed UYH over to US Airways - look where I'd be".