Flying Away / It's Time To Stop Counting On Us Air

[Bluestreak]

PIT had some great boom years from WWII through the 70's. Anyone could get a high paying job. You didn't need a college degree or a special skill. The people of PIT developed a sense of entitlement that is still going strong. I imagine US Air had something to do keeping this culture of entitlement alive. Where else can a person get a job that requires only two weeks of training earn $40,000 a year? What does the world owe you? There are thousands of people that would do your job cheaper. Come to a PSA FA cattle call sometime. See what the real world is like. I flew with a girl last week that moved all the way from Kansas to work a $16,000 a year FA job. She likes what she's doing and does a great job. She's probably only going to do it a couple years, but for now it's great fun for her. Guess what? There are thousands more like her waiting to get hired at this airline. These people will take your job in a second and all that Pittsburgh "in your face attitude" will only speed up the process.

PITBull and Cav should the work for the Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce. The new Slogan: IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, GET OUT!

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I pretty much expected, sooner or later, for such an editorial to be published. My prediction is NO airline will ever service PIT until the costs of doing business go down. Sad thing is, when U pulls out, the costs for everyone else will go UP, as somebody has to service the debt. Simplistic I know, because that probably is not exactly how it works. But in my strange world, U pulls out (and maybe survives), the airport defaults on its loans, and maybe the costs go down. I don't understand the financing too well...but at some point would not PIT be attractive to not only other carriers but maybe even a restructured Usairways? I won't even give Bronner credit for suggesting this, as he seem to be a "deleted" when discussing the fate of his own airline with the press. Greeter.

 

[burghlaw1]

Do they seriously think that some other carrier is going to step in and provide PIT-Europe service? Are they nuts? The city would have to give tons of incentives to get that service, and even then probably only LH could make it work by using whats left of US' feed.

[post="169651"][/post]​

If American can support a flight from Raleigh-Durham to London, why can't Pittsburgh support a flight to Frankfurt?

 

[burghlaw1]

I think what Airchief is trying to say is that PIT will need somebody in there after US is gone, and they remain at least somewhat unattractive to the LCC's, or else they would already have much greater presence there. Airlines like WN, B6, and such have no issues about taking on legacies or even eachother in a given market. PIT is just one they're not interested in. It's all about O&D.

So the Burgh can say to US go ahead we don't need you anyway all they want. The truth is, without US, they do. So who's it gonna be? :huh:

[post="169710"][/post]​

WN flies to many places with O&D smaller than Pittsburgh: Albany, Indianapolis, Louisville, Little Rock, Omaha. The argument that there's no O&D here just doesn't "fly."

 

[cavalier]

Bobcat..
take a good look around this region...it is dying..it was dying in the 80.s when I first came here from the steel mill colapse and it hasnt recovered...liberal politicans dont fix any problems/just keep raising up the taxes and raise taxes they will when those bonds are defaulted on from UAir for the airport. oh I forgot...state sanctioned gambling will fix all wrongs around here..
Its population continues to dwindle..young people continue to leave for other areas. The population left are mostly retired or near retirement.
So go get your Reberto Clemente bobblehead at the ballpark and relive 1979.
Hey..they can put a casino in -b- concourse soon

[post="169715"][/post]​

Your hatred is funny making only yourself sick while the world laughs a you.


Personally I could care less if this place was dying but nothing could be further from the truth! Traffic has quad tripled in the last twenty years around here to the point it’s a pain getting around, if that is dying then I am glad we are dying because there would be permenant grid lock otherwise. I was in Dallas not long ago and drove in that traffic, if that is what you want as a great city, glad we are dying around here

Captain the little funny birds can’t leave fast enough as far as I am concerned, Mario reminds me a spoil little child screaming I WANT I WANT.

 

[BoeingBoy]

burghlaw1,

I tend to agree that in the longer term PIT will do just fine without a large U presence. Will they have the non-stop service to all the places they had in the haydays of U? Undoubtedly not, but that apparently isn't in the cards with U either. If RDU and BNA can survive losing AMR's hubs after they built a new terminal building (RDU) or terminal (BNA) I feel sure that PIT can too.

As an aside, but apparently worth repeating, there is no such thing as a "passenger processing fee". The $10 or so inaccurately labeled as such is merely the monthly cost of the PIT leases divided by the number of passengers we handle there monthly. Obviously, the more passengers we funnel thru PIT the lower that figure is, while the less passengers go thru there the greater the number is. If and when U stops leasing some of the gates, the "per head" cost will go down.

Interestingly, U's cutbacks have resulted in a lower "per head" cost for other carriers at PIT. I see reports that show that other carriers year over year traffic at PIT is up by double-digits. They're handling more people with the same cost, so their "per head" cost is down while ours is up.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

WN flies to many places with O&D smaller than Pittsburgh: Albany, Indianapolis, Louisville, Little Rock, Omaha. The argument that there's no O&D here just doesn't "fly."

[post="169863"][/post]​

Doesn't matter. WN won't pay the outrageous fees to PIT when so many Burghers have shown willingness to drive to Cleveland to get on their flights. WN may eventually see the numbers work as USAirways pulls out, but watch for two- or three- leg service to the west coast. Transatlantic non-stops? Dream on. For a while I thought USAirways would keep PIT-FRA with maybe a stop in BOS, but I guess not.

As far as the Post-Gazette article, the editor is right. USAirways is a loser airline. I knew it in 1979 when I sent an application to every airline in the country EXCEPT USAir. Then that nitwit Colodny had to go an buy my job. I should have done then what I did in 1979...sent an application to every other airline in the country and got the h*** out of this zoo.

What the editor failed to say, though, is that Pittsburgh is a loser "city," too. For decades USAir and PIT were a match made in heaven: each feeding the other's outsized, but midplaced, ego. No now it's time for divorce. So what.

 

[burghlaw1]

Pittsburgh built a great airport. The only thing it needs to be successful is for the Western Pennsylvania population to grow from one to four million.

Pittsburgh's passenger processing fee is about $10 per passenger and in Charlotte it's about $1.50 per passenger.

Therefore, which airport has the highest profit potential for an airline struggling with high costs and rapidly deteriorating fundamentals?

I certainly do not want to see US Airways’ Pittsburgh operation reduced in scope or people lose their jobs. In fact, I live near Pittsburgh and I hate to see the Hub go. The ACAA had a chance to keep the airline by paying down the debt so US Airways could create another Cincinnati, but just like with the Penguins, the government has elected to not address a tough issue.

In fact, it would not surprise me if Mario sells the Penguins and they leave town too, then the Post-Gazette will says its the hockey club that is "equivalent of a broken-down tractor trailer blocking a lane of a high-speed parkway."

By the way, for those new business plan naysayers, the Post Gazette said, "There is, of course, the important question of jobs, the 7,000 people that a shrunken US Airways still employs in this area. This is a critical factor in a job-tight American employment market, which is currently creating only a fraction -- in July, a fourth -- of the new jobs America needs just to keep pace with population increase."

Something to think about...

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="169852"][/post]​

I definitely disagree with you on this one, USA320Pilot.

1. Pittsburgh Metro Population is 2.45 million (you and I have gone around on this one before);

2. UAIR never negotiated in good faith for reductions in the Pittsburgh airport debt. If you recall, UAIR rejected the PIT airport leases upon exiting bakruptcy protection. Then, UAIR demanded $600 million in various debt reduction and building programs (new hangars, gate modifications for RJs, new runway in PHL, etc.) In response, Pennsylvania, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh banded together for bargaining leverage and offered some $200 + million in improvements and debt reduction. Dave Seigel never said the $600 million was non-negotiable. Instead, he praised the PA coalition for a good first start. Then, he never countered. Instead, we saw the UAIR-sponsored PIT study, and nothing after. By last fall, Seigel was too focused on the onslaught of WN in PHL to deal with negotiating with PIT. Other than capitulate, which Seigel did not signal was necessary, what else should the government have done? Suffice it to say, now that slots have passed in PA, the PIT airport debt will go down. And if UAIR goes under, the politicians will get credit for not giving the house away. BTW there's no new runway in PHL, either.

Burghlaw1

 

[ktflyhome]

This is a sad statement from a PIT newspaper. I am not a Pitt native, but I love my Steelers and Pirates. I have lived in Pitt and have many dear friends there. This city does have alot to offer, one just has to get out and venture around.

What saddens me most, is that THIS city is the place it really all started. Some of the best people I have ever met are from PITTSBURGH

 

[BoeingBoy]

"Doesn't matter. WN won't pay the outrageous fees to PIT when so many Burghers have shown willingness to drive to Cleveland to get on their flights."

If I had a gun to my head and was forced to make a prediction, here's what it would be.

Within 6 months of U releasing gates at PIT, WN will have 4 gates (the PHL model). They'll quickly ramp up service (again, the PHL model).

As for settling for passengers driving to CLE, one has to look no further than (again) PHL - seems like WN wasn't content to depend on folks driving to BWI, which is closer to PHL than CLE is to PIT.

And the economics. With 4 gates, WN's costs will be 8% of U's current costs (less if they sign long term leases and don't have to pay the month-to-month premium we're paying on 40 of our 50 gates). They will handle more passengers through those 4 gates than we handle in half of our gates, resulting in their "per head" cost being a fraction of ours - something on the order of $1.50 to $2.00. So they won't see PIT as having "outrageous fees".

Jim

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

Yes, Pittsburgh is a really nice facility with disappointing O&D. But like the doctors say, what ails Pittsburgh is fatal but not serious. (Or is it the other away around?)

Did anyone ever stop to think that with some low fare stimulus maybe Pittsburgh would have a lot better O&D than what they have?

One rule of thumb is that cities that are relatively close together, but not too close....have what's called a "community of interest." Businesses with branch offices, family members, that sort of thing. If priced right, short-to-medium hauls can generate a lot of traffic.

More traffic = more passengers = more people amongst which to divide the costs of this nice facility = a lower per passenger cost.

I think we ought to focus on largish cities between 180 miles and 350 miles away. Only 12 O&D passengers per day between Buffalo & Pittsburgh. Of course, with an average fare of $326.50 each way---a yield of $1.76 per mile, that's sort of understandable. Baltimore.....210 miles.....69 pax per day.....avg fare $291.37, yield $1.39. Detroit is 201 miles. An average of 129 passengers per day pay an average fare of $247.61 for a yield of $1.23. Philadelphia...there ought to be a healthy amount of traffic between these two points. And there is...463 psgrs per day. Gee, I wonder how many people would fly if the average fare was not $260.37, a yield of 98 cents a mile.Albany NY is 367 miles by air, an average of 79 O&D psgrs per day between the two cities, with an average fare of $299.10 (which provides a yield of 81 cents). 81 Passengers a day, on average, fly between Indianapolis and Pittsburgh, a distance of 325 miles, an average fare of $262.27, for a yield of 81 cents also.140 passengers a day fly between Hartford and Pittsburgh...it's 408 miles.....at an average fare of $289.83 which equates to a paltry yield of 71 cents.

Norfolk.....330 miles.....68 pax/day.....avg fare $192.54 (yield 58 cents)
Raleigh.....328 miles...129 pax/day.....avg fare $190.08 (yield 58 cents)
and so it goes.

Manchester and Providence are a little further, around 480 miles.....98 and 118 passengers per day respectively....at yields of 53 and 46 cents.

And these are the AVERAGE fares...which means some people paid more and some people paid less. Sheesh.

Can anyone imagine what would happen to the traffic in markets like these if an airline were to go in and price a walkup fare at, oh, around 25 cents a mile......with an advance purchase fare of about a dime (if you have a ASM cost of 8 cents) or even 15 cents (if your ASM cost is a dime - 12 cents)?

Traffic would go up. A lot.

My thoughts are that USAirways has absolutely killed demand for their product in these types of markets with obscene fares. You kill demand, you decrease the number of passengers, you are dividing the costs of doing business over a smaller base...you get the picture.

GoFares notwithstanding, USAirways has shown no real desire to offer their product at low fares. They never have. They have always relied on high fares to pay high costs...labor costs and structural costs.....and they've been fat, dumb, and happy for many years.

Parity Plus One, anyone?

At any rate, the LCCs of our country have steered clear of PIT because of a fear, justified, that U would protect PIT with everything and the kitchen sink, there was a not insignificant amount of loyalty in PIT fo USAirways, and all in all it might just be more trouble than it was worth.

However, with U's de-emphasis of Pittsburgh all bets are off. My bet is the ugly planes will be in there by March....offering probably around 8 trips a day each way between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia....at typical walk up fares of around 79 bucks. If they can get the gate space at PHL to do it.

We will see and it will be ineteresting to watch.

And no, WN is not apt to replace the Frankfurt nonstop....but I would suggest that almost any station WN opens will get nonstops to Phoenix and Las Vegas. Heck, Midland, Amarillo, and Lubbock all have nonstops to Las Vegas. That makes for a not too bad west coast trip.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ktflyhome:

I agree with you. It's sad and there are many great people in Pittsburgh that work for US Airways or in support of the airport.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[Jetlaagd]

Ktflyhome:

I agree with you. It's sad and there are many great people in Pittsburgh that work for US Airways .

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="169888"][/post]​

Yes USA320Pilot,Too bad you are not one of them!

 

[USA320Pilot]

Funguy2:

The top ten U.S. domestic O&D markets in regard to revenue are New York, Washington, D.C., Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Atlanta, San Francisco, Boston, Denver, and Houston. Interestingly, Philadelphia is number twelve, Charlotte is number fifteen, and Pittsburgh is number sixteen.

Pittsburgh does not generate enough O&D traffic and has high operating costs for a small market hub. If Pittsburgh's operating costs where similar to Charlotte in today's environment US Airways would likely not have left the airport.

Respectfully,

USA320pilot

 

[EyeInTheSky]

PIT is a very strange place to me. Having been born on the other side of the state I find the attitude and approach a striking contrast to PHL and CLT. This is just my observations.

There IMO seems to be a greater sense of entittlement in PIT for one. It is bad enough that I would almost bet money I could guess where 80% of the posters live by the tone of their posts.

I find the artical typical of PIT and it reminds me the editorials I read as Steel faltered. You may flame when ready.

[post="169828"][/post]​

Now we know what's wrong with you :huh: Seriously, I was born on the other side of this state. I am totally embarrassed by that fact. The PHL area has the rudest people on the planet, bar none. New Yorkers are prom queens compared to the brash "Yo Philly" attitude. I'll take the rustheads over the rudeheads anyday. That being said, I'd rather be eaten by a wolf and sh*t off a cliff than move back to that dump on the other side of the state.