S
Swadl
Guest
And with the attitude that you have SWA most likely would have never hired you. Or maybe they did and let you go!
Flight Attendant
- Thread starter thesassyfa
- Start date
You my friend are so far off you cant even know,,, IF AT ever got close to DOH there would be a MUTINY,,, they dont and let me say this again ,, they dont DESERVE DOH.. YOU must not understand this deal ,, so let me break it down for you
The average AT FA will be recieving up to a 40% pay raise, BETTER= company, work rules, productivity, 401k, health benefits. flexibility, career, ,, those are the things we worked hard to get, this contract took us 20 years to get,,20 years for the company to finally give us..That is longer than AT has been around,,,, they dont come over and get all the upgrades,, why would that be fair,, we bought them, this is not a merger.. ohh no that doesnt happen
If you were GK would you rather have 2,200 moderately upset FA who got a lifetime of upgrades OR 10,000 Irate FA who have made the company successful,,,10,000 FA who get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from this deal except headaches and possible loss of seniority,,, that is not a hard one to figure out,,, no WAy they deserve DOH,, I am not saying staple them but never DOH
Ok, tirade over, class dismissed
:blink:
BoeingBoy
Veteran
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The last 4 pilot integrations all went to arbitration and the result was some form of ratio by equipment/seat. I will admit, however, that pilots are the only group that have so much depend on seniority (as opposed to longevity), from different pay for different airplanes/seats, to pension contributions, vacation bidding, schedule bidding, etc. Employees in every other group get paid on longevity only no matter what airplane they work (the steps of the pay scale) and bid vacation, schedules, etc based on base seniority with no consideration of airplane/seat.
The AFA and IAM have DOH in their Constitution and Bylaws so have no wiggle room to adopt a different position even if DOH hurts the FL folks since they're a newer airline. In a DOH integration of FA's, for example, the top XXX number of FA's would be WN before the first FL FA appeared on the integrated list.
Jim
You are correct, the pilots had a much bigger ball to deal with, and moving to the right side vs the left, huge $$$$I understand,..It was a bigger game that they played
The FA's work on a scale/steps by years worked,, and it is more about schedules, the pay is the pay,, the FAirness is the issue,, I Know it can be said a million times but AT employees have everything to gain personally and SWA employees have NOTHING to gain personally,,
DOH will not fly with any and all the fa's I have talked with,,, seems arbitration is the end game here, SWA FAs have nothing to lose in arbitration if DOH is what ATs demands,,, we will just have to see how the company handles it,, drag it out for years to come... because the Co. had an plan A,B,C for the pilots and the SWA FA's are bigger than any other group in negotiations,, almost as big as all the other SWA/AT groups combined
SWA- -------- AT
FAs
10,000+ ------- 2,200
Pilots
5,200 -------- 1,800
Mechanics
1,600+ ------- 400
...
Wouldnt make sense for the bean counters to allow 2200 AT people to walk into $20-30k yearly pay raises...
I havent heard from any AT FA on this forum but I would be intersted in what they have to say, why they think they should walk in w DOH $20-30k year payraise, better work rules, tons more flexibility, 401k, health, etc... and then take seniority from all those who have worked here for years,, makes it very hard for FA's at SWA to welcome them in with open arms..
It will not be pretty, if it comes to ,, AT Taking it all and giving up nothing VS nothing to GAIN for SWA, it will be lopsided and the divide will be to great to ever close up, no matter how many years pass,, as one 8 year FA said to me " 40 years would not be enough time to get the bitter taste of this kind of DOH robbery out of the mouths of the SWA FA's",,wow may be harsh but may be accurate
This is not me, but these are feelings and the opinions of hundreds of FA's I have talked with, so dont shoot the messenger,, this is the cold hard reality,,these are the facts and this seems to be the general concensus of just about every FA I have spoken with, I simply tell swa fa's to call the union and let your voices be heard..Fairness is the key
I am only one VOICE with only one VOTE :unsure:
BoeingBoy
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Like I said, the AFA really has no choice but demand DOH - their Constitution and Bylaws demand it. However, the rank and file FA's at FL can agree to anything else if they so desire. Frankly, I'd be surprised if the FL FA's wanted DOH - any WN FA hired prior to 1994 would be senior to every FL FA. I'd think they'd argue for a ratioed integration - 5 WN FA's then 1 FL FA then 5 WN FA's then 1 FL FA and so on (approximately since the ration of F/A's is not exactly 5 to 1). That would put the most senior FL FA's among the most senior WN FA's all the way down to the most junior FL FA's in with the most junior WN FA's. That would seem to favor the FL FA's more than DOH - 20+ year WN FA's would see 18 year FL FA's going in front of them.
I also think you're just going to have to resign yourself to the FL FA's getting the better part of the deal. Contractual items - pay, benefits, work rules, etc - will have to be the same for everyone under a single contract. That's just a given unless FL is operated separately for the foreseeable future. It was, and is the case with the pilots in the US/HP merger - the US pilots would gain in almost every way with a joint contract but insisted on DOH on top of that, being the older airline. That would have meant that in addition to the contractual gains, most HP pilots would have been mixed in with the US furloughed pilots (US had as many on furlough as HP had total pilots). The arbitrator basically said "No, you can't have all the contractual gains and put most of the HP pilots below your bottom working pilot too."
Jim
I also think you're just going to have to resign yourself to the FL FA's getting the better part of the deal. Contractual items - pay, benefits, work rules, etc - will have to be the same for everyone under a single contract. That's just a given unless FL is operated separately for the foreseeable future. It was, and is the case with the pilots in the US/HP merger - the US pilots would gain in almost every way with a joint contract but insisted on DOH on top of that, being the older airline. That would have meant that in addition to the contractual gains, most HP pilots would have been mixed in with the US furloughed pilots (US had as many on furlough as HP had total pilots). The arbitrator basically said "No, you can't have all the contractual gains and put most of the HP pilots below your bottom working pilot too."
Jim
Jim,
I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of what your saying....there have been many different scenarios run by the SWA side, I wont agree with the ratio though,,, The last time I checked and DONT quote me, there were 426 AT FAs at 10 years or more as of OCT 2011...with the remaining 1800 under 10 years....I heard that they hired twice as many but the turnover ratio is high(again thats what I heard, I cant confirm it)
S0 a 5 for 1 fa/fa would give those bottom 1800 even better seniority ,, seeing as we had two slow downs/freezes in hiring, 2001, 2009-2010,, so if I am seeing this correctly with those ratios the 4-10 year AT FA's would actually gain more than their DOH... thats ugly,,
So the two most talked about plans that the FA's at SWA keep mentioning are, again dont shoot the messenger,,
1- Whatever the AT FA pay scale is right now, let them come over to SWA at that $amount,, and then move them up One step(we use a step system),, where ever that lets them fall in seniority so be it, they make more money but give up some seniority
2-Like the Pilots and now the Mechs are talking about, take for ex..30% hit in seniority and move on, or take years at AT credit to years at SWA,, for ex; every 3 at AT gives them 2 at swa, or 3 AT for 1 SWA etc,, but to take it all upgrades +seniority,, problems ahead!!!
SOMETHING, something to show some Good FAith in Fairness.. Most are happy for them to get the upgrades and work for a great company like SWA, but to take all the seniority as bennies,, well is hard for most to swallow,,,
I think the Pilots started at -3 years and then a 1 AT to 7 SWA , 1 AT to 7 SWA etc until the bottom it was 1 to 6
Unfortunately we have heard little from the AT FA's , and the rumors are not good(I try to steer clear of rumors),,but not really sure what info they are recieving,,
But as I have stated in earlier posts, a friend of mine was approached by a AT fa and she introduced herself saying that she was #5 or 6 at AT and was looking fwd to being #6 or 7 at SWA,, our #7 girl has probably been flying for SWA longer than that AT flight attendant has been Alive.. now that is not a rumor, my friend called me 10 min after it happened
The bottom line is(according to approx 95-98% of FAs I have talked with), if the AT FA's get DOH or close to it,,,it would be the end of the SWA culture,, no amount of POM POM press releases could change that,,, again this seems to be the word on the street... I am just reporting here,
Personally my seniority wont change, I am senior to all AT FA's ,, I simply hope that they understand that their ability to be fair and understand the bigger picture will lead the roads ahead to be smooth and rewarding or broken and full of pot holes
IMHO if they show Good FAith to the SWA body of FA's(4-10 year) that are the ones mostly affected... they will be welcomed,, if they dont then most of the SWA FA they work with for the rest of their carreers will feel like AT has stolen from them and never be welcomed,,, AGAIN,, AGAIN,,,I am just relaying what is being said by the vast majority I talk too,,, getting it out in the open may help everyone understand a little more what the view is like looking through the SWA glasses of the 4-10 year FA's over here...my glasses look like this B)
Good luck to us all,, Here is to hoping FAIRNESS will Prevail,,
I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of what your saying....there have been many different scenarios run by the SWA side, I wont agree with the ratio though,,, The last time I checked and DONT quote me, there were 426 AT FAs at 10 years or more as of OCT 2011...with the remaining 1800 under 10 years....I heard that they hired twice as many but the turnover ratio is high(again thats what I heard, I cant confirm it)
S0 a 5 for 1 fa/fa would give those bottom 1800 even better seniority ,, seeing as we had two slow downs/freezes in hiring, 2001, 2009-2010,, so if I am seeing this correctly with those ratios the 4-10 year AT FA's would actually gain more than their DOH... thats ugly,,
So the two most talked about plans that the FA's at SWA keep mentioning are, again dont shoot the messenger,,
1- Whatever the AT FA pay scale is right now, let them come over to SWA at that $amount,, and then move them up One step(we use a step system),, where ever that lets them fall in seniority so be it, they make more money but give up some seniority
2-Like the Pilots and now the Mechs are talking about, take for ex..30% hit in seniority and move on, or take years at AT credit to years at SWA,, for ex; every 3 at AT gives them 2 at swa, or 3 AT for 1 SWA etc,, but to take it all upgrades +seniority,, problems ahead!!!
SOMETHING, something to show some Good FAith in Fairness.. Most are happy for them to get the upgrades and work for a great company like SWA, but to take all the seniority as bennies,, well is hard for most to swallow,,,
I think the Pilots started at -3 years and then a 1 AT to 7 SWA , 1 AT to 7 SWA etc until the bottom it was 1 to 6
Unfortunately we have heard little from the AT FA's , and the rumors are not good(I try to steer clear of rumors),,but not really sure what info they are recieving,,
But as I have stated in earlier posts, a friend of mine was approached by a AT fa and she introduced herself saying that she was #5 or 6 at AT and was looking fwd to being #6 or 7 at SWA,, our #7 girl has probably been flying for SWA longer than that AT flight attendant has been Alive.. now that is not a rumor, my friend called me 10 min after it happened
The bottom line is(according to approx 95-98% of FAs I have talked with), if the AT FA's get DOH or close to it,,,it would be the end of the SWA culture,, no amount of POM POM press releases could change that,,, again this seems to be the word on the street... I am just reporting here,
Personally my seniority wont change, I am senior to all AT FA's ,, I simply hope that they understand that their ability to be fair and understand the bigger picture will lead the roads ahead to be smooth and rewarding or broken and full of pot holes
IMHO if they show Good FAith to the SWA body of FA's(4-10 year) that are the ones mostly affected... they will be welcomed,, if they dont then most of the SWA FA they work with for the rest of their carreers will feel like AT has stolen from them and never be welcomed,,, AGAIN,, AGAIN,,,I am just relaying what is being said by the vast majority I talk too,,, getting it out in the open may help everyone understand a little more what the view is like looking through the SWA glasses of the 4-10 year FA's over here...my glasses look like this B)
Good luck to us all,, Here is to hoping FAIRNESS will Prevail,,
BoeingBoy
Veteran
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I'm at something of a disadvantage as far as concrete solutions because I don't have the two seniority lists showing dates of hire. I just go by the age of the two airlines. It seems to me that the absolute best thing the FL FA's could hope for isn't DOH but a straight ratio - whatever the ratio of active FL to active WN would be (my 5 to 1 was based on total number of FA's at each carrier). That's what that FL FA was saying - she was saying that since she's at/near the top of the FL list she will be at/near the top of the combined list. Because of the other gains the FL folks will be getting, I think it's unlikely that an arbitrator would do that.
More likely is DOH until you get to the senior FL FA (I assume hired in late 93/1994), then a ratio of some sort - maybe even varying ratios for different bands of the seniority list hired after 1993 depending on the ratio of hiring during different years. If, as you say, FL has had a lot more turnover they'd have a lot more FA's hired later than their peer at WN with equal seniority on the separate lists. It may be that straight DOH would put all the FL FA's in the bottom two thirds to bottom half of the combined list and most in the bottom quarter. If you've got the two lists, especially in a digitized form where you could put them in a spreadsheet and sort by DOH, you could see the result.
But this is only guess work on my part. Hopefully the two groups can work something out that satisfies most of each group.
Jim
More likely is DOH until you get to the senior FL FA (I assume hired in late 93/1994), then a ratio of some sort - maybe even varying ratios for different bands of the seniority list hired after 1993 depending on the ratio of hiring during different years. If, as you say, FL has had a lot more turnover they'd have a lot more FA's hired later than their peer at WN with equal seniority on the separate lists. It may be that straight DOH would put all the FL FA's in the bottom two thirds to bottom half of the combined list and most in the bottom quarter. If you've got the two lists, especially in a digitized form where you could put them in a spreadsheet and sort by DOH, you could see the result.
But this is only guess work on my part. Hopefully the two groups can work something out that satisfies most of each group.
Jim
So then let me ask you this,, if this went to arbitration,, would the arbitrator look at the other SLI agreements,, that being the Pilots, Mechanics of AT/SWA and see what their agreement was, and use that for weighting their decision?.
Or would they keep apples to apples and go with other airlines FAs agreements, if so how would they look for an apple to compare it to, I cant remember the last actual Buyout not Merger between two airlines, a BUYOUT of this magnitude in the last 15 years or so,,, when was the last Buyout and did the group of FA that got bought out stand to upgrade as much as AT FAs are???? I dont think people outside this deal understand the totality of what AT FAs have to gain,, its a true life changer when you compare all the nuts and bolts
Am I being obtuse here, or wouldnt it be better to go to arbitration for SWA FAs if AT demanded straight DOH,, we would have Zero to lose...whats your take
Or would they keep apples to apples and go with other airlines FAs agreements, if so how would they look for an apple to compare it to, I cant remember the last actual Buyout not Merger between two airlines, a BUYOUT of this magnitude in the last 15 years or so,,, when was the last Buyout and did the group of FA that got bought out stand to upgrade as much as AT FAs are???? I dont think people outside this deal understand the totality of what AT FAs have to gain,, its a true life changer when you compare all the nuts and bolts
Am I being obtuse here, or wouldnt it be better to go to arbitration for SWA FAs if AT demanded straight DOH,, we would have Zero to lose...whats your take
BoeingBoy
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Well, if the arbitrator concluded that a ratio from top to bottom was fair you'd have more to lose than with DOH (not you personally, but the WN group). Who knows what an arbitrator would decide - it's a crapshoot and neither side is likely to get exactly what they want. That's why a negotiated solution if far more preferable.
Merger, buyout, it really makes little difference. Technically, DL bought NW, Republic bought Frontier/Midway, UA bought CO, HP bought about half of US (outside investors bought the rest). If it goes to arbitration the arbitrator won't care how the transaction was accomplished. His/her job is to put the two seniority lists together in what he/she considers a fair way. Nothing more and nothing less. You may not think the result is fair, Miss 5 or 6 on the FL side may not think the result is fair. But whatever the arbitrator says is the way it will be.
So for either side to say "It's this way or arbitration" is wrong (although the AFA has to say that, even they should know that this seniority integration will follow the law and not AFA policy). You're likely to be a lot better off working something out between you.
Jim
Merger, buyout, it really makes little difference. Technically, DL bought NW, Republic bought Frontier/Midway, UA bought CO, HP bought about half of US (outside investors bought the rest). If it goes to arbitration the arbitrator won't care how the transaction was accomplished. His/her job is to put the two seniority lists together in what he/she considers a fair way. Nothing more and nothing less. You may not think the result is fair, Miss 5 or 6 on the FL side may not think the result is fair. But whatever the arbitrator says is the way it will be.
So for either side to say "It's this way or arbitration" is wrong (although the AFA has to say that, even they should know that this seniority integration will follow the law and not AFA policy). You're likely to be a lot better off working something out between you.
Jim
NYCDelta
Senior
Wow, if that happened to you, I apologize for them. It amazes me that any F/A would look down on anyone else who is dong the exact same job. You're right, everybody chose their career based on their own wants/desires. When I started at DL, I wanted to fly international. At that time, all I knew about WN was based on the one flight I had taken previous which involved the F/A's singing and playing games with the pax. Just wasn't my cup of tea. My last flight on WN (last February) was completely different: the 3 F/A's were professional, friendly, and not-at-all obnoxious. I have a friend here in Chicago that started at WN, wanted to fly international so switched to AA, then after 3 years-went back to WN, where he has been for the last 8 or 9 years. To each his own.
You're also correct though-if you treat other crews the way you were treated, then you sink to their level. It sounds like you won't make that mistake. Happy flying!
NYCDelta
Senior
If a DL F/A wanted to fly all month with no days off (except at their layovers) then maybe it's possible. I don't know anybody in their right mind who would want to do that. I flew 80-85 per month (all international) and if a WN F/A flew the same amount-they made more.
Let's not get carried away. I've worked for 5 airlines and every one of them had things I liked and things I absolutely detested. I know a few WN F/A's and every one of them are very happy, but even they occasionally complain about their employer.
If the AirTran F/A's in total are 15 years or less (or whatever number it is) I would think DOH would benefit you (as a whole). If the most senior F/A at AT was hired in 1993, then that would put them, and all other AT F/A's in the bottom half of your seniority list. The last thing you would want is ratios. AFA's policy is DOH so I'm sure they will push for that. If you're saying that you don't want DOH or ratios, then what would you like? If it is for them to LOSE seniority (i.e. giving someone with a hire date of '93 a new hire date of say 2010) then I don't believe that is fair, and probably wouldn't pass the new legislation. Looking at past integrations, if it goes to the arbitrator, you may see them gain even more seniority. DOH is the way to go.
Kev3188
Veteran
If it goes to arbitration, there are ~ a dozen integration methods that can be used while still meeting the technical threshold of "fair and equitable." Some are anything but, depending on which side of the fence you're standing on...
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
Uh, exactly! Thanks for making my point for me.
What are the Southwest flight attendants so afraid of? ValuJet has only been in existence since 1993. And with thousands fewer f/as at FL, who are mostly junior to EVERYONE at WN, DOH is not something you need to worry your pretty little head under your big Texas hair about.
besides, obviously you are not familiar with AFA. As BoeingBoy mentioned, DOH is part of every AFA contract. It is written into the constitution and is a NON-NEGOTIABLE tenant of AFA standard, across every AFA represented f/a group at EVERY AFA carrier. Sorry.
Deny that, and Southwest passengers will soon be saying, "Southwest used to have such friendly flight attendants that loved their jobs... now they're just angry, old and bitter, and don't get along with the passengers OR even themselves. The so called 'Culture of LUV' is dead! WHAT HAPPENED!??"
So many passengers fly WN supposedly because the flight attendants are so "friendly." I'd hate to see what happens to Southwest's bottom line when passengers realize WN will become like every other airline, with workgroups at war with eachother that hate having to work together, and are openly bitter and vindictive to eachother, again, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CARRIER... sad.
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
What is FAIR about being stapled to the bottom??
DOH is the absolute fairest way, with a fence at ATL to prevent any displacement by any WN f/a. Even the most senior flight attendant at FL is junior to the majority of WN hags. Your advocating stapling to the bottom is not only offensive but typical of an arrogant WN flight attendant who thinks they belong to a company that is God's Gift to Air Travel. Get real. You think you "saved" AirTran? That you're some red-bellied knight in puke-orange armor? Guess what. AirTran was profitable and doing just fine before Gary Kelly came along. And you know what else? Many of you guys are going to lose some relative seniority in the final SLI deal, because you guys don't serve cokes any better than we do. Get over yourselves.
BoeingBoy
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However, as the AFA surely knows and I've said that that only applies when the AFA represents the FA's on both sides. That isn't the case here, so the AFA can't fall back on the "This is what we require" excuse. The federal law says that when different unions represent the two sides the procedure is negotiate/mediate/arbitrate to arrive at a "fair" integration. Nothing in the law says that DOH has to be used although I agree that DOH should be preferable to the WN FA's that combining the two groups by a ratio from top to bottom. But I can see how a junior WN FA might not consider it too fair if they saw most of the FL FA's go above them while they remained junior.
Of course, like with the pilots, Kelly could exert some influence over the process...
Jim
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